How many tracks can I record simultaneously?

[ankursamtaney]

I have a rather old Dell Inspiron 640m. Core2Duo processor, 2 Gigs of RAM..

a) Think it would be able to handle recording about 16 simultaneous audio tracks (dry while tracking) on either Ableton or Acid at a normal 16/44.1? (assuming I have sufficient hardware available to track 16 ins at a time, of course)

b) If I need to record these 16 tracks for one hour, would it make it easier on the computer if i kept stopping after every 10 to 15 minutes, saved the project and tracked the rest on a new project? Or would it not make a difference?

c) Does it make a difference (in terms of load on the CPU) whether I use 8 onboard preamps on the Firewire interface + 8 external via ADAT OR whether i use all 16 preamps via 2 separate ADAT inputs and none from the interface itself? Logically shouldn't, in my opinion, but am not sure.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Cheez]

(a) 2GB RAM is somewhat limited, but you should be able at least 8-10 tracks without problems with your current specs, IF you have a dedicated PC AND a fast HD. I've never tried that many simultaneous tracks before

(b) No difference

(c) Don't think so.

 

[blueprintstudios]

a) 8 definitely can (I have similar specs laptop + with my zoom r16 audio interface for drum recording.) but 16 you'll really have to watch your PC maintenance end, fully dedicated. I've done 16 tracks with a celeron 2.4ghz (non hyper threading) 2gbram 333mhz but with an Echo Audio Layla24 PCI + Behringer ADA8000. now one thing is i can't say for sure whether the pci audio interface absorbs some of the cpu load or not. so you're still taking a risk here. if it doesn't record well ,try increasing the buffer (increase latency).

b) if you need to record for 1hr x 16 tracks , be very sure that you have proper ventilation to cool down the hdd cos this is the time it fries. but of course test a) situation first that it's able to withstand. to answer your question, yes it would cos of the "mini-breaks" cool down on the hdd, and the other most important factor : ever tried to record something for 1+hr and then your DAW/OS crashes one shot? that 10-15 min saving gives you the backup-recovery factor. sounds like you're doing a live gig recording or something, the other thing you must remember to keep your laptop a distance from anything really loud including drums. because HDDs will not withstand that heavy vibration from loud sources (bass amp/metalcore doublekick pedal drumming) and crash/"trip".

c) sounds like you've got one hell of an audio interface with that many inputs. profire 2626 or something. i don't know the details on this myself, but from experience/gut-feel , it feels like CPU is the processing speed of "capturing" the data. and RAM is just how much memory your OS + softwares/plugins use up. you still need way abit of headroom. and the HDD speed is the part where it matters the most writing data to itself.
so for example if (sorry try to keep up with me here if you're not "video"literate) you were videocapturing from a DV tape camera via your firewire port, and both your cpu/firewire port/ram > hdd can capture an entire 13gigabyte DV AVI tape without "frame dropping" , it should be able to capture AUDIO as it has "lesser datawriting" than video. but I still can't say for sure again for 16 tracks. just watch your HDD "cooling system".but hey, you did mention it's an "old" dell. time to get a more powerhouse laptop if it doesn't work hehe. or record lesser tracks. it's a sooner or later thing.

hope this helps

 

[ankursamtaney]

Thanks very much for your responses guys.

Especially Blueprint - thanks for taking the time to type alllll of that out

1) It's not that i AM recording a gig in the very near future, but am hoping to do something of that sort for some friends sometime next year perhaps.. so want to start planning my gear right away (partly GAS, partly necessity I guess, and since I can't shop for clothes since nothing here fits me, I can only shop for gear )
2) I don't have a profire2626. All I have is a KB37 at home for an acoustic guitar and vocals haha but yea, am considering a few options here.. would like to have your opinion on what may be the idea way to go:
-- Get a Profire Lightbridge which will let me have WAY more inputs than i'll ever need. 4 ADAT ins.. so 32 i/0 channels. Could easily hook up 2 ADA 8000s to it for 16 tracks, and upgrade later if need arises. Seems like a great option. Only drawback (if at all a drawback), i can't use it as-is.. so will have to hook up external pres to it to use for ANYthing.
-- Get the Focusrite Saffire 40. Gives me 8 onboard pres (which I hear, are great!), and can take another 8 channels via ADAT when needed. Don't suppose I'll ever need more than 16.. atleast not for the next 2 to 3 years.

Both of the above seem to be better deals than the 2626 -- which, in a way, is neither here (Saffire, clean, simple and sufficient) nor there (Profire lightbridge.. all the way, with 32 channels). Know what I mean? And the 2626 is the most expensive option of the lot. Not worth it for just an extra ADAT in.

Those were some great tips on the HDD cooling and proximity to sources of vibration. Doubt I'd have thought of those myself! That's where your experience counts and shows, i guess! Thanks.

As for the laptop, yea might just upgrade to a powerhouse in the next few months which may well last me for the next 3 years! Was hoping to do that recently, but just settled to upgrade to a 500GB 7.2K RPM internal HDD, since the other configs sufficed for what I do in the bedroom (recording 2 tracks at a time, i mean! ;-) )

Last question.. somewhat related. Say I'm recording 16 (or even 8) tracks simultaneously.. I assume i may HAVE to do this on an internal hard disk, right? Seems like the right thing to do, as opposed to recording straight to an external HDD, which seems like a recipe for a HDD / DAW / OS crash. I could be wrong, what do you think?

Thanks again, in advance.

 

[blueprintstudios]

Ankursamtaney : haha no worries I'm here to share my experience to help ppl make a better decision as your money calls the shots eventually.there are stuff I've learned the hard way which I think most softies should gain from and spend the time writing better music than the goodstuff than we currently already have.

The audio I/f you have mentioned are your own research as I can only say I heard good reviews about the saffire 40.

What I'm a little confused is you bought a 7200rpm notebook hdd??? Cos most notebook Hdd is mostly 5400rpm. You currently using desktop or notebook?

What's your budget? What's your OS? What purpose do you aim to achieve from this setup? And what quality do you have in mind? (cos it appears that you have chosen audio I/fs with the preamp qc in mind)

 

[blueprintstudios]

Forgot : what instruments are you recording in total simultaneous? Cos even for 16 inputs is alot unless you're recording earth wind and fire.I personally have not exceeded 14 for the last 8 years (audio I/f plus 6channel submixer for live recording)

 

[Cheez]

Most of the time, you don't need HD cooling. You'll hit the read/write bottleneck before anything happens - ie you'll start to encounter clicks and pops, which means you are hitting the ceiling of the HD's capacity for recording simultaneous tracks. A good firewire drive (check out the read/write time, not just the rpm) should give you best results. Note that if you are using a firewire drive, you won't be using a firewire audio interface (since most notebooks only have one firewire port).

My first dedicated DAW system was a P3 933MHz with 2 GB RAM. Up to 8 simultaneous tracks was not a problem - but I was using 2 SCSI drives (10,000rpm + HD cooling). And I was doing HD streaming of samples at the same time. I find the HD cooling is not necessary - just creates more noise.

Blueprintstudio, high-end notebooks now have 7200rpm. Mine is 7200rpm as well. Only problem is the higher power it requires, which means shorter battery life.

 

[ankursamtaney]

My dell (notebook) came with a 120gig 5400 rpm sata HDD. Obviously wav files ate the shit outta it, and i never fancied the idea of recording directly to an external drive. So picked up a 500gb 7200rpm sata HDD from sim lim and stuck it in, in place of the original one. works like a charm and noticeably faster.

Budget: looking at getting something with 8 pres + ADAT ins for starters for 600 - 700 bucks (SGD). Getting them off ebay at those prices. Am also leaning towards the Saffire 40, which im able to find for under 700SGD. Could add an ADA8000 later. I'm not that fussed about the quality of pres, as I believe both the pres and converters on all of these are decent enough for me and quite usable. i'm not hoping to mix a platinum record, and even if you or someone out there did, no one would care what pres were used, as long as the end result was clean and the mix pleasing to the ears. very debatable, but know what i mean?

Purpose is to be able to record a full band w/ close-miking a drumkit. So while 16 is obviously a bit much (like a mental 'limit' for me, to say that i'll never need more than 16!), 8 will definitely not suffice.. so could well be about 12 to 14 tracks. Then again, I haven't ironed out details yet, but knowing that I can work without needing more gear later (in the near future) is a satisfying feeling

Honestly, would much rather go without a submixer (unless a situation really calls for it).. but for now, yea, i think i'll just get the saffire pro 40 and sit happy with 8 pres. can add either a submixer, or the ADA8000 later.

 

[blueprintstudios]

Cheez : ah i'm very out of touch for notebook HDDs cos this HP/Compaq (1.66c2d 2gbram 120gb hdd) notebook i got free off starhub's subscription of internet service like years ago has served me well. haven't looked into it. the irony! Western Digital's "green hard drive" desktop is going 5400rpm and the notebooks are going 7200. but I wasn't referring to "HD Cooling" for ankursamtey's situation, more like just "cool down, give it a break from the data-writing if possible" cos nothing beats saving in between sessions in case shit happens.

Ankur. : writing to another external drive limits you that "port" (firewire/usb) and converts your max data writing speed from "SATA" to "USB" and may fry your mainboard's external ports on long term use. cos it'll be audio > audio interface > USB/FW > PC > FW/USB> HDD rather than PC>SATA>HDD. if cheez has streamed samples successfully, then it's tried and tested. but I won't confidently balance sample streaming with continuous multitrack recording so this is at your own risk yeah.

as for your budget, yeah if you can grab a saffire40 under 700 it's pretty good. just remember the behringer ada8000 has a heating problem issue (it's just weird cos when I was recording at another recording studio they had a mackie onyx 800r adat pre and it also had heating issues) , don't stack them too closely with another rack, give it ventilation. I know because I had 2 ADA8000 last time and I could probably make soft boiled eggs when I mount them together. or keep my coffee warm.

heheh on the final mix over gear used debate, all I can say is "the user must be better than the gear" and "the consumer pays the band, the band pays the audio engineer/producer" so the other audio engineers can say whatever anything bad just cos you're not using premium/"industry" stuff , they won't be paying you nor buying your client's product.

I personally am using Zoom R16, and I know a few people who have used it are doing well with it's stability so far (impressive for a USB audio interface). The reason why I got it it's because I can always grab another r16 in future to combine 2x8 inputs audio interface. portability etc. and the best part is I like to have reliability in the situation when one R16 breaks down on me I will have the other (functioning as an "ADAT") immediately to convert into the main audio interface stand in. It will not apply much in your case because you're not doing location recording. but it's just another "reliability" factor to take into consideration.

another burning question is, how many mics will you be using for the drums?

 

[ankursamtaney]

Maybe I explained wrongly about the HDD. I meant I'm generally never comfortable with the idea of recording to an external hard disk. As for my laptop, i swapped the original 120gb 5400rpm SATA HDD with a new 500gb 7200rpm SATA HDD which is now the only hard disk in my laptop. I've saved the 120gb for putting back in the day i decide to sell the computer

Noted, about the heating of pres. Will make the most of it.. maybe toast my bread on 'em!

I hear you about the gear / engineer / artist thingy.. guess there are many schools of thought when it comes to home recording / budget recording, but yea I do believe that the final cut is as good as the weakest link in the chain -- be it the band, the gear (any part of the signal chain), the engineer or even the room sometimes.

about the drumkit, if hardware and mics permit -- which they should with the gear discussed, may just slap on 7 mics (5 on the drums + 2 OHs). the advantage is, i could use most of the signal from the 4 main mics (snare, kick and OHs).. or try out different combinations post recording. then again, haven't thought about it enough at the moment. the idea now is only that i should have sufficient gear to be able to capture it reasonably well, whether with 4 mics or 10

Didn't understand the thing with the R16s. I've looked carefully into the those and their big brothers - the R24s.. but when used as an interface, don't they only send stereo outs via USB? Sure, you can make great recordings with them.. but it beats the purpose of a multi-track interface, doesnt it? I know you can onboard multitrack recordings, but i've never used those digital recorders and don't fancy the idea of venturing into them when I can get the ADAT linking capability at similar pricepoints these days. I'd much rather do edits in Acid (which i've used ever since Acid 4.0) and / or Ableton which i've been getting better at of late.

 

[blueprintstudios]

I think you misunderstood.most people have the impression that USB audio interfaces record only stereo (drums.wav) but r16 supports multi track aka LOH,ROH,snr,kk,Tom,Tom,Tom whether it's in standalone (record to sd card) or USB audio interface mode you get 8 individual simultaneous inputs.
But yea like I said of course it wouldn't apply to you because you're not doing location recording where we can't afford anything to screwup without a backup plan. If I was on a pure audio interface + adat. Adat breaks down no prob still got 8 inputs.but audio interface breakdown = end of session.laptop breakdown = end of session. (I'd still be able to operate r16 standalone without my laptop.)

No prob then good luck with your purchase!

 

[Cheez]

External HD is recommended. Or I should say, 2 separate HDs. One for Windows and one dedicated for recording. That is if you want to max out simultaneous tracks. The reason is that the OS continues to use the HD all the time (virtual memory/page file etc). This will affect the performance of your HD and the number of tracks you can record without clicks and pops. You really want the OS to sit on one HD to do it's stuff, and a dedicated HD just for recording. Even in a desktop, that's what's recommended. I have 3 HDs on my desktop - one for Windows, one for recording, and one for sample streaming. On my notebook, I always use an external HD. But that's mainly for sample streaming as I don't do live multiple track recording (except what's sequenced and played internally).

Blueprintstudio is right. I won't put sample streaming and audio recording on one HD. It doesn't work. Sample streaming takes all the power necessary from the HD (depending on how many samples and the size of them). But I guess you won't be doing much sample streaming.

I would very STRONGLY recommend an external HD. Last thing you want is to record something then get a glitch half way which destroy your entire recording session - just because the OS competes for HD resources. That usually don't happen if you are recording a few tracks. I've done that with a few tracks many times (ie recording on one HD). But if you are talking about 10+ simultaneous tracks, I won't be surprised your single internal HD (and hence your entire recording session) will get into trouble.

 

[blueprintstudios]

ankur : let us know what you ended up with and what results yeah

 

[kongwee]

If you have firewire 400 external HDD, 30 track is no biggie. I think your com could do 20+ track under Win XP environment.

 

[blueprintstudios]

kongwee : "I think your com could do 20+ track under Win XP environment." <-- seriously? you tried before?

 

[kongwee]

No, when I was in Roland forum, when Intel DualCore(not C2D version) was born, people started to take 20+ track with Windows XP with 2 gig in desktop. Which software, I dunno cos I don't really care. Any DSP(like Protools TDM) involved, dunno too. But people already boosting with that kind of spec. When Logic 8 has launch, a demo DVD show that a MBP 2.4ghz(still dualcore I think) with 4 ram can eat 30 track at once with Apogee PCMINA??(sorry dunno the name) audio interface and throw to a firewire 400 HDD.

 

[Cheez]

I've not heard people getting that many tracks simultaneously. But to get anywhere near that, the key is dedicated and optimized OS and fast dedicated HDs. My first DAW that gave me multiple streaming tracks + multiple audio tracks was optimized using a software called XPlite. It strips Windows XP down to bare minimal - till it arrives at a Windows 98 shell. It's amazing how small the memory footprint became. And the machine is so fast, the boot up time is just in seconds. Too bad they have not continued to bring it to Vista and W7. There's also nlite and vlite - but again, development seems to have stopped.

I wonder if those who got 20+ tracks really had 20 simultaneous tracks with those specs. They may have 20 tracks but not simultaneously playing at one time. That's very possible. But 20 concurrent tracks - that's pretty amazing.

Now rushing a project - mainly for my live performance next week. First time doing on my notebook (not my desktop - desktop died!!!!). Multiple sample streaming + audio recording. Haven't encounter pops yet (except when I'm multi-tasking too many things on the DAW environment). But I have a dedicated HD and OS. May encounter problem soon. Well see! Loading gigantic samples from super large piano to super large separate string sections + SD2. Wonder what will happen when I start getting those individual tracks into different busses and applying individual effects on the channel strip.

 

[blueprintstudios]

kongwee : it was just a "yes or no" question heh. thank you for the reply.

ankursamtaney : before you get on the wrong direction by someone who just simply cut'n'paste and include a simple disclaimer without a care in the world like "I don't know and I don't care" (might as well don't post)

I typed out the DIY Recording FAQ on soft 3 years ago and I recalled this -

"the worst I've ever recorded was 16 tracks of 24bit/48khz simultaneously on a 2.4ghz nonhyperthreading PC with 512mb ram. but then again my old PCI soundcard's low latency could have made that possible."
I was using Echo Audio Layla24 PCI + Behringer ADAT ADA8000. my DAW back then was Syntrillium Cool Edit (not "peter quistgard" version, I have the original cd box believe it or not, it's a frickin collector thingy now) and that was not even ASIO supported. and my hard disk was just your usual desktop IDE Parellel ATA. not SCSI. as for OS, it's like what Cheez has said ,it's heavily modified by myself. my XP OS currently is about.. err 1.5gb with office/browser/etc ? excluding DAW installation of course. so that may have also contributed.

So to give a better estimate , together with what "people on the roland forum" said about their experiences if it is true, it may still be possible for you to record your 16 tracks simultaneous 16/44.1khz on your laptop based on the high chance the audio interface does take abit of load in writing to the hard disk. if I manage to get a volunteer with another R16 I'll hook up together with his and record on my compaq 1.66c2d 2gb ram 5400rpm hdd and try record 16 tracks see how it goes yeah?

lastly before I end this post, I'm not sure if this point will be valid but based on my experience, if you record 16 tracks at once vs if you PLAY 16 tracks at once, I do believe it's somewhat different. because one is writing and one is reading. and ontop of that when you do "punch in drums 16 tracks recording" , you're half way PLAYING + RECORDING 16 x 2 tracks.
and I know one thing for sure, if you try over do the recording tracks limit, the recording will fail/daw crash or just simply stop. if you try over do the playback limit, the daw will go draggy or the audio will go choppy but it will still try to play.
so does this mean that recording is more intensive than playback?

 

[kongwee]

It should be 16 bit 44.1 khz recording, cos at the time 24bit recording is still not that "popular".

 

[blueprintstudios]

The time i was recording at 24/48 5 years ago.everyone was fresh on the 24/96 vs 24/88.2 vs 24/44.1 war.