WTS: Epiphone Casino (Sun-burst)

[yubsesperat]

why dont we play a game?

this one is called spot the difference(s).

from ep.tjan's site: http://www.public.fotki.com/etjan/sold-out/epiphone-casino/casino-005.html

lets align it perpendicularly, shall we?

zoom in.

now lets compare it to the regular, authentic epiphone casino.

1. stock control knobs are the reflector knobs. the ones on the guitar are different. but given the benefit of the doubt, it couldve been changed to make the guitar look 'cooler'.

2. on the said B-stock guitar, notice how close that F hole is to the volume knob of the bridge pickup?

but then again, our eyes might be playing tricks on us.

but if you havent noticed yet, let me lay it down for you.

3. observe the position and orientation of the knobs relative to each other?

on a vertical guitar position, notice how the volume knob of the neck pickup is placed higher than that of the tone knob for the bridge pickup?

also, the volume knob for the bridge pickup is diagonal to the tone knob for the neck pickup.

on the supposed to be B-stock guitar, it is the other way around. the bridge tone is placed higher than the volume knob of the neck pickup!

and the volume knob for the bridge almost lines up with the tone knob for the neck pickup!

this kind of mistake is not a B-stock mistake. its a bad copy/counterfeit mistake (not that counterfeiting is good anyway).

now if supreme did get this from ep.tjan, then the dude has some explaining to do.

 

[yubsesperat]

here is the pickguard anomaly.

left: guitar in question

right: genuine casino

 

[yubsesperat]

the tuning machine anomaly:

epiphone casino comes with tuning machines that have the Small button like those of a vintage klusons. lemme give you 2 examples.

having established that, lets look at the guitar in question:

it really doesnt take a genius.

 

[JuJuHound]

Great job yubsesperat. If you look at the ABR bridge thumbwheel post holes between the seller's Casino and an original Casino, the size is different. The original Casino has the usual tiny ABR bridge thumbwheel post holes while the seller's Casino has the typical China made fake thumbwheel post holes which is a lot bigger and the post has a slot where you can adjust using a screwdriver. Some asian made guitars with ABR bridge does have the bigger thumbwheel post with slotted screw heads but never ever on an original Epiphone Casino be it American or Asian made.

If it's original, it's supposed to look like this

If it looks like this, it's fake. Some Asian guitars have ABR bridges like this but not the Casino. Every China made fake Gibson/Epiphone guitars have this kind of bridge. If you see a Gibson Les Paul or Casino with this kind of bridge, it's a sure sign that the guitar is a fake.

I hope the orginal seller ep.tjan will explain and clarify this matter. I hope Soft will take a stance and prevent sellers from selling fake guitars on the forum.

 

[yubsesperat]

you are basing all these on your so-called knowledge...trying so hard to bring justification that it is a fake.

my so called knowledge is what is simply known as observation and research. and if i was trying so hard, why is it so easy to prove just my mere looking at it?

you have a reputation for digging other people's info and make problems out of nothing in this forum.

if the proliferation of fakes being sold as genuine is what you wanna call 'nothing', then yes, thank you for doing the forum a lot of service. give this boy a round of applause.

If you aren't buying, why do you impose your self centred opinion on others then?

im not trying to impose it on anyone. everyone is free to make their minds up. but i believe it is fake. everyone who wants to believe its genuine can feel good about buying it. how about you, what do you think? or do you even?

to each his own.

 

[ep.tjan]

Hello all,

first of all i would like to apologize for my late responses on this issue due to my work hours.
The origin of this guitar was from a small local guitar store that i bought it from. It was labeled as a B Stock and the pickups has been replaced.

Reading all the comments and points that highlighted some of the differences of the Casino, i would like to say my opinion on it. As all we know , Gibson has their production facility in Qingdao China - and i personally believe that this particular Casino is one of the product that doesnt pass quality control,therefore if you're comparing on the pre-china made casino and the current one, you will see they are in fact quite different in terms of quality.

lastly, i am open for discussion with our fellow friend - SUPREME to resolve this issue.

 

[yubsesperat]

As all we know, Gibson has their production facility in Qingdao China - therefore if you're comparing on the pre-china made casino and the current one, you will see they are in fact quite different in terms of quality.

Unlike the Korean counterparts like Saein and the likes, the China Quingdao plant isnt even an OEM. It is run completely run by the Gibson. How can you justify that because its in China, the 'quality' is different? If anything, the guitars that come out from them should be intensely up to specs, especially because those specs come from them to begin with.

And isnt even the quality that is in question here but the correctness in specs of what a Epiphone Casino has.

And were not even comparing it to the older Korean-made Casino. The samples we took are China-made Epiphones themselves, just like this guitar claims to be.

i personally believe that this particular Casino is one of the product that doesnt pass quality control

i have to strongly disagree.

Even if you are an OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) for Epiphone (or for other brands for that matter), more so if you are the Gibson company yourself, you follow a set of stringent specs for each guitar.

Since this is mass produced, these are not individually hand-made that a finished product would have such an apparent discrepancy from a standard.

Machines route the wood and cut plastic parts. Hardware and electronics are made out identically by other machines as well, ready to be assembled into the guitar.

The only human errors that could be involved would be:

1. aesthetic - could be that it has blemishes from mishandling or uneven finishing, flaws in the binding or inlays, glue residue spilling out of joints

2. assemblage - faulty electronics due to faulty soldering/wiring, unstable hardware installation

3. worksmanship - uneven frets, nuts that are poorly cut either to high or too low, hairline cracks on paint due to glue-starved joints

These are the usual errors that cause manufacturers and stores to label their guitars B-stock sell it a considerable discount since the guitar would need 'some' work to get it to work.

As opposed to sending it back to the dealership for a replacement or to have it fixed, which is tedious and would cost them more money than they put into it that they'd rather break-even on cost and just sell it for cheaper, relative to the flaws it has.

This guitar is nothing close to a B-stock guitar.

1. Did they just mistakenly installed a different set of tuners, perhaps?

Are those even really Grovers at all?

2. Did they just happen to have routed the headstock quite larger? Using an computer-automated router? Highly improbable.

3. Did that one, wrongly cut pickguard,supposedly cut by computerized routers, end up in the 'Casino Pickguard Pile' and got installed on this guitar? Hrrmmm...

4. Did that one tail piece, missing a trapezoid inlay, got mixed up with the batch, end up on this guitar? Could it have?

5. Did they mistake this guitar as a Les Paul model that they installed the wrong ABR on it? (imagine putting a casino side by side a Les Paul. Pretty confusing which is which?)

6. Did that guy assembling this guitar thought 'gee it wouldnt be cool to put different knobs on this one' that he went on and put a different set of control knobs on this one? Was he willing to lose his job for that?

7. Were the holes for the pots on guitar routed incorrectly by the machine? Ya think?

8. In strong reference the #7, didnt the guy, fishing out those wires and pots through those F-holes find it difficult to install the electronics because the dimensions were screwed up? Having done that already a hundred times, couldnt have he even suspected that there was something odd about how those holes are oriented? But he installed them anyway thinking this was a one-of-a-kind guitar.

9. Didnt the guy, who at the end of the QC (quality control) line, testing out the guitar, find this one highly unusual, not having the correct appointments an Epiphone Casino should have?

10. Finally, if havent you asked yourself yet, why is it that of all the mistakes that could've happened along its making, this guitar fell victim to the mistakes most unlikely to happen?

these flaws do not qualify a guitar to even be referred to as B-stock.

i would understand a guitar having the wrong knobs, a wrong pickguard or wrong set of tuners. hell someone couldve switched them along the way. but a guitar as dyslexic as this one is unexplainable except for the reason that someone unwittingly deliberately made it that way. add the fact that its pickups has been supposedly switched to something else, not knowing if they were better than the stock, not even knowing what brand of pickups they are or where they came from, leaves me to believe that this guitar must feel like crap.

the guitar doesnt know what it has become or what it was to begin with.

it does look similar to an Epiphone Casino. but it aint one. the only semblance it has to a Casino is that you can have fun with it but you lose money on it. Sadly for this one, in a real casino, although highly unlikely, you at least have the odds of coming out with more than what you came in with. I cant say the same for this one.

 

[JuJuHound]

Hello all,

first of all i would like to apologize for my late responses on this issue due to my work hours.
The origin of this guitar was from a small local guitar store that i bought it from. It was labeled as a B Stock and the pickups has been replaced.

Reading all the comments and points that highlighted some of the differences of the Casino, i would like to say my opinion on it. As all we know , Gibson has their production facility in Qingdao China - and i personally believe that this particular Casino is one of the product that doesnt pass quality control,therefore if you're comparing on the pre-china made casino and the current one, you will see they are in fact quite different in terms of quality.

lastly, i am open for discussion with our fellow friend - SUPREME to resolve this issue.

Sorry to burst your bubble dude, like what yubsesperat commented, even if the Casino is a B stock guitar, it still has to conform to Casino specs but this particular Casino doesn't, there's so many parts that are all wrong on this guitar. The bridge of the Casino is totally fake. If this was really a guitar that didn't pass quality control, don't you think that by selling is for $900 is way too high a price? Even a brand new China made A stock Casino is sold for only $870 at Swee Lee. It's nice of you to come over here to clarify but i'm sorry to tell you that this Casino is a fake as far as i am concerned. I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

 

[supreme]

Dear JuJuHound & yubsesperat, really thanks for going spending your precious times for verifying this guitar for me. If I have not post this up for sale, there is no way I would have know it is a fake. I have traded in my authentic Epiphone Jack Casady Bass + top up $100+ for this.

I really hope it's a honest mistake on the seller's side as well, do not want to point finger as long as I get my full refund from him.

 

[JuJuHound]

Dear JuJuHound & yubsesperat, really thanks for going spending your precious times for verifying this guitar for me. If I have not post this up for sale, there is no way I would have know it is a fake. I have traded in my authentic Epiphone Jack Casady Bass + top up $100+ for this.

I really hope it's a honest mistake on the seller's side as well, do not want to point finger as long as I get my full refund from him.

Your Epiphone Jack Cassidy bass cost more than an Epiphone Casino and further more this Casino is a so called B stock guitar, ep.tjan should count his lucky stars when you agreed to trade with him and he made you top up another $100? That's just not right. I hope you get back a full refund from him. ep.tjan even openly admitted that this guitar did not pass quality control means even if this Casino is an original, it's worthless, but this guitar is worst than a guitar that failed QC, this guitar is a fake. I do hope that you understand we are not here to pick on you, we are here just to point out that this Casino is a fake and we do not want others to get rip off. I can't stand dishonest sellers who rip others off, it is people like this that ruins it all for fellow guitar players. Now we know that you are the victim, please return this fake guitar and get back your refund. All the best.

 

[yubsesperat]

Your Epiphone Jack Cassidy bass cost more than an Epiphone Casino and further more this Casino is a so called B stock guitar, ep.tjan should count his lucky stars when you agreed to trade with him and he made you top up another $100? That's just not right. I hope you get back a full refund from him. ep.tjan even openly admitted that this guitar did not pass quality control means even if this Casino is an original, it's worthless, but this guitar is worst than a guitar that failed QC, this guitar is a fake. I do hope that you understand we are not here to pick on you, we are here just to point out that this Casino is a fake and we do not want others to get rip off. I can't stand dishonest sellers who rip others off, it is people like this that ruins it all for fellow guitar players. Now we know that you are the victim, please return this fake guitar and get back your refund. All the best.

i have nothing to against ep.tjan putting up for sale an Epiphone Casino for $900. Pricing is the seller's prerogative. He could have tried to sell it for $2000 for all i care. The question is would someone be naive or stupid enough to fall for it. Its always a question of whether it will sell or not and if there is a market for a certain guitar to be priced as such.

However, if essential information such as the background and history that affects the integrity of the guitar being an 'Epiphone Casino' has been withheld to maintain its image and sell-ability, then it can no longer be denied that there was the element of deception involved.

in all fairness, i commend you ep.tjan for being open to settle matters regarding this issue. however, i urge you to honor that supreme deserves to get his bass back (or a more than fair equivalent) plus his money, even more. but no less than that. we also ask you to come clean regarding this guitar. not that you owe it to us but you have a chance to air out your side so as not to affect your future dealings. im dying to find out the story behind this guitar, from your own words.

and if all the information i got is true, this guitar had not been truthfully represented by the original seller from day ONE. i urge you supreme to get your Cassidy Bass plus your top up money and return him this guitar. if he no longer has your bass, do not settle for anything less than what you believe is fair. consult people before agreeing into something, because not to dampen your spirit, but i think youre young and naive, very easily trusting. not that you shouldnt trust people. you should doubt if you must trust them unless they prove worth it. it ought to be earned, not lost.

 

[supreme]

Hi , much thank for your advise. He has already sold my bass and I offered to settle this with him for the full amount to be refunded back. However, he said he could not give me back the full amount but instead able to "buy" it back at my stated price of $500. I have not response to him yet but will like to consult fellow members if it is unfair for me to demand back full amount?

 

[yubsesperat]

Hi , much thank for your advise. He has already sold my bass and I offered to settle this with him for the full amount to be refunded back. However, he said he could not give me back the full amount but instead able to "buy" it back at my stated price of $500. I have not response to him yet but will like to consult fellow members if it is unfair for me to demand back full amount?

if you want my advice, if i may ask, whats the story behind the guitar? what has he told you about it?

when you bought it, what did he tell you? that just the pickups were switched? just that?

if he withheld essential info about the guitar's components, i strongly urge you to demand your FULL investment back - meaning the FULL value of your BASS guitar during your trade (which i think is $800) plus your $100 top up (that adds up to the value he put on the 'casino' which was $900 at that time). This is the mostfair and logical arrangement I believe there is.

Given, that you are now just asking $500 for the guitar, its highly unfair for you to just get that $500 since that has now become your desperate selling price, when in fact if this was an UNQUESTIONABLE Epiphone Casino, it would fetch for more.

So he gives you $500... minus the $100 you gave him at the time of the deal, leaves you with $400. Do you sincerly think its fair that youre $699USD valued bas guitar (minus the condition it was in) should be valued at just $400?

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/bass/epiphone-jack-casady-signature-bass-guitar

The most logical thing to do is to revert back to moment of your dealing when, had he become FULLY honest about the guitar, you wouldnt be in this predicament to begin with coz im sure you wouldnt have gone through with the deal had you been told everything important about the guitar.

He cannot bring up factors such as inflation and devaluation. That $500 offer is simply taking part of the blame, as if he was conned himself. But he is in no position to negotiate because it was because of his own doing why you are now in this predicament.

And do you think he just sold/traded your bass with a $400 value? And now hes offering you JUST that much?

However, how much he was able to sell your bass guitar is beyond your concern now. You shouldnt come out unscaved. You shouldnt take any of the responsibility and take any losses for this deal gone sour because you were deceived and lied to. Plain and simple. Take back what you came in with and leave.

If i sold you my guitar, telling you its an authentic GIBSON Les Paul, whether for a discount or its normal going price, you should get a GIBSON Les Paul.

If i never told you that I switched the parts, didnt i deceive you?

Worse, is if i had single-handedly used parts that are not what the guitar should have... and even worst, use cheapo, aftermarket parts that arent genuinely Gibson made, didnt i blatantly lie to you?

I hate to use word LIE and DECEPTION but there isnt a word more appropriate to use than those two words.

and NO, it isnt ufair for you to demand back the full amount. In fact, if he has any decency in him, he should be the one offering it to you without you having to ask.

Really, taking that $500 offer is like allowing him to con you again, as if he havent done that before.

 

[purchaser]

Supreme is a nice fellow which I have made deal with him before, my suggestion is that you should get back the right amount you deserved/ invested. It was clearly and act of misrepresentation.. otherwise with the current evidence, go to the police..

 

[supreme]

Thanks bros for the advise. After several emails exchange between ep.tjan, in which he claims he could not afford the $900 full refund, I have decided to cut him some slack and go for $700 instead + I get to keep the guitar hardcase. He then told me he need till Sat to make a full decision on whether to accept my offer, but I shall remain firm on my stand(I have been trying to be nice to him as he might be a victim too la). But just wondering if I can really make a police report on this? Cause i have lost all form of communication with him before hand as i cleared my SOFT Inbox.

 

[yubsesperat]

Thanks bros for the advise. After several emails exchange between ep.tjan, in which he claims he could not afford the $900 full refund, I have decided to cut him some slack and go for $700 instead + I get to keep the guitar hardcase. He then told me he need till Sat to make a full decision on whether to accept my offer, but I shall remain firm on my stand (I have been trying to be nice to him as he might be a victim too la). But just wondering if I can really make a police report on this? Cause i have lost all form of communication with him before hand as i cleared my SOFT Inbox.

for someone who has tons of high-end stuff for sale, he cannot AFFORD to give you back your $900? who is he kidding?

in what way do you mean that he too was a victim? what is the story he gave you? ive gathered some info on this but id rather you divulge the story, as he had told you.

and if he did withhold from you the guitar's history, i feel you outta firm with the decision to get your full $900 back.

hold on to the police report. give him full chance to redeem himself.

 

[supreme]

he still claims the item is not fake, and also suggested to trade the Casino with one of his guitars in which I still need to top up accordingly for higher-end models. Ok, i will demand a full refund back to me as well as to get him to explain his side of the story of the origin of this guitar.

 

[SPQR]

I hope ep.tjan will behave decently in this matter. He's always been speaking against comments on sale threads (e.g. price police, fake-spotting), and it seems he might have a vested interest in doing so. Surely, as yubseparat pointed out, if you ep.tjan can afford so much high-end gear, you can afford not to worry about such small amounts of money?

Doing the right thing and earning goodwill and building a good name should be worth more than the couple of hundred dollars you gain from refusing to refund a fake. (Why were you selling a fake in the first place?! Fakers must be getting very good to have deceived a gear aficionado like yourself!)

But that's just my $0.20 - it's your prerogative, ep.tjan.

 

[yubsesperat]

also suggested to trade the Casino with one of his guitars in which I still need to top up accordingly for higher-end models

trade for his guitars he himself put a value.

he still claims the item is not fake

ive been told that he got the guitar bare, without pickups and hardware and installed them himself.

did he tell you this? apparently, this is what he had told people who had asked him before.

 

[ep.tjan]

I hope ep.tjan will behave decently in this matter. He's always been speaking against comments on sale threads (e.g. price police, fake-spotting), and it seems he might have a vested interest in doing so. Surely, as yubseparat pointed out, if you ep.tjan can afford so much high-end gear, you can afford not to worry about such small amounts of money?

Doing the right thing and earning goodwill and building a good name should be worth more than the couple of hundred dollars you gain from refusing to refund a fake. (Why were you selling a fake in the first place?! Fakers must be getting very good to have deceived a gear aficionado like yourself!)

But that's just my $0.20 - it's your prerogative, ep.tjan.

Thank you all for the concern and comments, and i really appreciate that the suggestion that this issue must be cleared as soon as possible to clear up my reputation and name within this society. I will take action on what to do with it, and right now i'm still discussing with Supreme. Thus, i really appreciate that we all stay cool to each other, not to make any provocative comment unless you have to, and not to accuse one without really knowing the case, and yes let's make this forum a great place to all guitar enthusiasts.