why you shouldn't support gigs with minimum ticket sales.

[CAVEvents]

greetings soft!

we're CAVE, a new organization focused on bridging the gap in the local music scene by building a strong mid-level scene!

I'm sure many of you guys who play in bands have faced the following scenario: you want to play in a gig, and the organizer/promoter says "I'll let you play even if you suck, as long as you sell a minimum of X tickets at $Y".

Some bands do this effortlessly, others struggle to meet the quota and end up forking out their own money for unsold tickets. This is according to what was agreed upon.

Is it any coincidence that these gigs never seem to make much impact or help the scene?

Let's look at it from the organizers perspective. Suppose we organize a gig. We book a venue, such as DXO, Phunk Bar, etc. And we rent equipment. Then, we simply advertise: 12 bands wanted for gig at -insert venue-! Minimum ticket sales 15 tickets at $15 each!

It's not illegal and it's not unfair- if all goes well, there will be a crowd of 180 people + the other bands, which might be about 11 other bands x 4 members per band, so a expected turnout of +220 pax.

But what actually happens? From the organizer's perspective, the show is over before it already begins- every band HAS to pay him their $225 no matter what, whether or not there is a good crowd, whether or not the equipment worked at all, whether or not the event was successful.

Do these organizers deserve to be given 12 x $225, or $2700 upfront?

What would you do if you were such an organizer and had that kind of money in your hands, even before the show happens? Would you bother to put in much effort in running the show smoothly? Would you bother promoting the events to the public to boost ticket sales? Would you bother about your event at all, having the knowledge that no matter what you'd be making the same amount of money?

What this scenario ultimately creates is the organizer who doesn't have to give a crap because he's getting the money anyway. This leads to sub-par events, unhappy bands, unhappy crowds- and this, we believe, is hurting our scene.

We believe that it is the organizer/promoters job to hire good bands that can naturally draw crowds, and to promote and publicize the event to the general public and target audience so that the crowd will be a good one. By hiring only quality bands, you won't see the crowd getting bored and lazy watching sub-par bands play. A good crowd energy coupled with good quality bands will result in a good show! If an promoter builds a reputation for organizing good, quality shows, everybody benefits!

Why isn't this happening today? It involves alot of hard work on the organizer's behalf- work which they don't need to do, because bands are willing to simply put the money in their pockets for the chance to play any gig.

I'm not asking you to support our events simply because we don't force bands to sell tickets and because we sincerely want to help the scene by doing good shows with good bands- i'm simply asking you to choose the gigs you want to support wisely. Your collective effort can make or break the scene.

Cheers!

-Visa
http://www.myspace.com/ArmchairCritic
http://www.myspace.com/CAVEvents

 

[sLapshock]

-deleted-

 

[jbarks]

sLapshock: Why post if you've got nothing to contribute?

Visa: I can see where you're coming from, but what about newbie bands with no gig experience? They'll need a place to start out somehow. I don't think that having bands sell tickets is wrong but I agree with you that making bands do all the work isn't very desirable.

 

[CAVEvents]

bands definitely can sell tickets- bands do have their fanbases and will definitely ease the load on the promoters/organizers! But it shouldn't be such that the promoter basically throws his work on to the bands' backs.

CAVE intends to do wholistic events- I was quite inspired by Wayne's posts (from Gila Rock) about how an event should be progressive from start to finish and end with a sound conclusion. We will definitely be allowing newbie bands to open for more established bands at our events.

Shifting the focus from ourselves to wholistically, I play in a band myself and it started as a newbie band too (as do all bands). It's not easy, but you have to take the effort to spread word about your band through word of mouth, promotional material such as myspace, demo mp3s (we recorded with an mp3 player hanging from a mike stand- it's enough for promoters to get the gist of it). All they have to do is to be humble, willing to learn, practice, be co-operative and put on a good show. Nobody expects brilliance from an opening band.

While on the other hand, promoters who don't quality-control the bands that play give no thought to the lineup and might put a new inexperienced band after a headliner- ouch!

There are more options available for new bands now, but I hope they can be improved and I hope to be doing something about it.

-visa
http://www.myspace.com/armchaircritic
http://www.myspace.com/CAVEvents

 

[JiveB]

No experience is one thing, but sub-par bands that waste everyone's time is another. Lots of teenage bands these days just wanna play to "try out". IMHO, we don't have time to let them "try out". That's the way the world works. Wanna play, have some good material. Doesn't matter if ur set consists of 6 covers and 2 originals, as long as they are quality.

Bands that put in effort to write and try to convey their energy and passion outwards will be noticed, that's what myspace/purevolume is for. Then when people like the stuff they hear, they will get the experience and gigs that they deserve.

my 0.02$

 

[gibbytones]

totally agree with CAVE.

we should know which gigs to support.

even if the bands are newbies, just started out.
they would probably have a hardtime selling the tickets too.

considering the popularity of certain venues.

so these bands have to come up with their own dough to cover up for the
tickets that are not sold.
virtually these bands are paying to play.

now if you ask me?
for a newbie band who just wants to get out get the experience and get
their music heard.
paying to play at this stage should not be an issue.

but the issue here is about the organisers.
organisers just get any bands as long as they can sell certain number tickets at a certain price, even if the band sucks they still get to plau.
now this definetly damages the image of our local scene.

another good fact CAVE mentioned is about organisers considering it
all over even before the show starts.
now ive noticed this myself at a certain venue where during the show
the organiser was nowhere to be found. there was always a blur inbetween bands as the bands did not know when was their turn.

this thread is a real eye opener..

 

[CAVEvents]

^I wholeheartedly agree with JiveB about newbie bands just "trying out".

But if such bands wanted to "try out" and the promoters didn't let them, we wouldn't have a problem! What happens instead is that some promoters see newbie bands as a source of money and suck it out of them, at the expense of the crowd and the event.

-visa

 

[CAVEvents]

now ive noticed this myself at a certain venue where during the show
the organiser was nowhere to be found. there was always a blur inbetween bands as the bands did not know when was their turn.

this sort of thing should not be happening- such basic details should be ironed out before the show, between promoter and bands!

 

[penguin]

mr cave...man i agree 120%..
i just feel that the organizer shld support all bands thats performing ..even tho the bands are newbie or no stage experience...

and secondly need some cooperation from the sound guy to make these bands sound decent...

those newbie bands are the future of Sg music ..

you need a stage manager, to ensure that everything in tip top condition on stage and proper time keeping ...thus no delay watso ever..

 

[DONKS]

Hey all at CAVE, was just wondering.

Your upcoming gig features indie/punk bands and with regards to this topic. I was just thinking about your first post. Yes, I believe you are right man. The possibilities for such a humane error to be made is very high and you never know at all.

But with the exclusion of organisers that work with the method of minimum ticket sales, will you accept the bands that play music that might not be to everyone's liking? I'm talking about genres such as death metal, black metal, ska, metalcore, hardcore. Music genres that might not interested the public and people that do not already have an interest in such. It is easy to understand that the musicians in these genres will already not have much of an oppotunity to showcase their brand of music overseas or on a larger stage locally due to the lack of marketing oppotunities or simply just due to the public's disapproval. So how would you propose such bands survive on their musical aspirations?

Thanks!

 

[mamasita]

but cave, isn't that how most organisers operate? most bands have to rely on such opportunities because honest organisers with integrity are a rare breed. so i would say until there are more of the 'alternatives', to stick with the ticket pre-sales, just for exposure of an amateur band. the organisers get the money, we get the much-needed exposure.

 

[CAVEvents]

if most promoters operate that way, is there any wonder why the situation of local music is like this?

it's sucking the scene dry!

we hope to change that.

 

[emg-rocks]

CAVEvents>> u guys have a good cause. gd luck in your events yeap

 

[saito]

DONKS (DAMMIT no quote button)
"But with the exclusion of organisers that work with the method of minimum ticket sales, will you accept the bands that play music that might not be to everyone's liking? I'm talking about genres such as death metal, black metal, ska, metalcore, hardcore. Music genres that might not interested the public and people that do not already have an interest in such"

I hear what you are saying. There is alot of feedback given to my activities as well saying that I only engage high-end bands for corporate shows and larger scale platforms. Unfortunately that's what corporates and most paying clients want. These bands (The harder and darker genres) indeed have great difficultly showcasing their material because there's simply not alot of people willing to put them on and due to the absolute glut (70% of bands now) that occupy this niche, its unsurprising that there an equal sized generation of promoters that have did their sums.

HOWEVER

I am in fact doing a mega event (3000 square meters in size, 4 stages) which WILL cater to only Metal / Emo / Hardcore / Goth in october. More news on that later.

Guys - please attend the next DGO Summit. Your views are valuble. If SPH came down to cover it I believe people are starting to take us seriously

 

[saito]

Visa. *newfound respect*

you might be hearing from me soon in a promoter capacity

 

[AgingYouth]

Payola is one of the most common thing in the global music BUSINESS.

Remember it's still a BUSINESS, regardless of whatever artistic intentions.

 

[saito]

anor. Willy pimped out man

 

[ahkiatt]

All the best to you guys. Hope the scene here will boom!

 

[XLayaR]

Well...The way I see it.....These organisers are usually afraid of a loss in profit

They damn Hum ji thats why......

IMO...The organisers should take it upon themselves to sell tix, advertise, publise etc.

If the band wants to help, its fine....But that shouldnt be the band's responsibility in the first place....The only responsibility the band should have would be putting on a great show....

 

[CAVEvents]

DONKS:

will you accept the bands that play music that might not be to everyone's liking?

We will not be able to put those bands together in indie/alternative/easier-listening shows, but as we progress and get more successful with our events, we'll consider organizing and promoting events focused on such bands too. It's not very fair, but it's the price to pay for playing non-popular music.

Personally, I do appreciate heavy music but my main passion is still with the indie/alternative/mainstream rock so I will be focused on that. Saito on the other hand here is passionate about darker/heavier music, and as you can see in his post, he'll be doing something about it.

Cheers =)


XLayaR:

Why should organizers be afraid of losing profit, unless they themselves don't have faith in their own event? If they don't have faith in their own event, why should the public put their faith (and money) into attending the event?

Makes you think.