Urgent advice for Korg TR or Yamaha MO6, etc

[cornelius]

Urgent advice for Korg TR or Yamaha MO6 or Roland Juno-G, etc

Hi,


My church is considering on getting a synthesizer, it'll be mainly used for live church services, but also recording from time to time.

With the budget, I think can only choose between Korg TR, Yamaha MO6, Roland Juno-G, Roland Fantom Xa...

From some of the review online, comparing the natural/acoustic sounds, Yamaha might be better and more realistic, but Korg TR is good for synth sound, and personally, i'm quite impressed by the after-sense key of Korg TR.

Due to my school work, I might not have chance to go down to Music Plaza to try the MO6 personally, whereas Korg TR, i tried long time ago...

Can anybody give me more technical and detail advice on comparing the two? or would you have any other better suggestion which is at similar price range?

I need some of these voices to be at least acceptably realistic as compare among each other choices of brand: piano, drawbar organ, section brass, string(including solo violin to orchestra strings), woodwinds(flute, sax, ...),

And besides, are any of them hard to operate(at least for changing the voice in live)? because it'll probably be used by musician's from youngsters to adult of 30's 40's...

and may i know roughly how much will each of these keyboard cost?

thank you =)

regards,
cornelius

 

[truelove]

Yamaha MO6

i have a yamaha mo8.
1) the piano sounds are not realistic enough. (i find roland sounds for piano best cause my church uses roland.)
2) when changing sound, the current sound gets cut off totally, so no good for live.
3) the functions are difficult to use, you need to study the manuel for a few hours and lots of practice to get to know the functions well.

dont buy yamaha for live piano sound.

 

[Cheez]

Hi Conelius, for church playing purposes, a synth is always an overkill. I've seen too many churches using synths and even workstations, but utilising only 20% of the functions and 10% of all the sounds.

As you aptly pointed out, the main instruments used in church will be acoustic (occaionsal analog - depending on the skill of the keyboardist to merge the sound with the rest of the band without being overbearing). So you'll be looking for reaslitic acoustic sounds - mainly piano, electric piano (mainly the DX-7 tyne piano type of sound), the B3, strings, and woodwinds (mainly oboe/flute), occasional section brass (in that order of priority).

You also want functions to enable you to layer quickly, control each layer's parameters (mainly volume), and quick user friendly interface.

Synths unfortunately don't give you most of these functions, or at least require you to tweak a little more before getting what you need. You need pre-programming, something church keyboardist don't have the benefit of doing. We get a lot of impromptu, change in music, adding of new music in the middle of a worship session etc. And with one practice a week, we don't have time to meddle around with programming of patches.

Other problem with synths is what truelove said - when patches are changed in a synth, you get a cut-off effect. It doesn't blend from one sound to another. Something we do all the time in church playing is changing instruments, merging one patch to another. Synth doesn't do that elegantly because different sounds uses different synthesis - so when you switch a patch, the engine will also switch.

So your best choice is always a stage piano. It fulfills all the functions above. And for the most realistic acoustic sounds, your choice would be Roland, Yamaha and Korg in that order. My suggestion is Roland RD700SX (the new RD700GX will be out). Lower cost version (RD300SX) is also pretty good. For Yamaha, CP300 (although you won't need the build-in speakers) or CP33 As truelove said, Yamaha's piano is pretty junk. Actually, their acoustic instruments are all pretty badly programmed. But in a live situation, it doesn't really matter when the sound comes out from the loud-speakers. You lose so much definition that the difference isn't much (esp piano). Exception is strings - you'll hear the difference (and feel the difference when you play) - problem is again in the programming.

The beauty of of RD series is the ergonomics. It's very well thought of from the live player's perspective.

 

[cornelius]

Thx for advices from truelove and Cheez...


Cheez:


my church was previously using PSR1000, and because the board is somehow spoiled, to repair it, it cost abt the same as buying a new one, so church decides to get a new one. I used PSR1000 abt 1 year plus, basically, i'm quite alright with the sound it provides:

1) the touch-response keys allow me to play the strings and expression through fingers, solo violin not bad,
2) piano sound is so so,
3) B3's not very good as it does allow me to change or tweak it(i know higher end of PSR does),
4) woodwind is nice,
5) but when come to brass even though the presets're quite ok already, however, it doesnt allow me to tweak it to be more realistic(e.g. for brass, when you hold the keys, should go softer then louder back again; or loud when you accent on it), PSR is very limited, but Korg Karma has the preset of what i want.
6) synth sound are so far so good only.

now since the (TR or MO6, etc...) is within the budget, so i feel that a synth might be what we need. for longterm, we might not use it only for live, cz my church already has a Korg 01/W, Korg Karma(owned personnally by a member) and another PSR1000, and a grand piano. so a new synth might be able to complement to them, yet convenient to bring it out station for church camp, concert, and even post recording for my church 2nd album. so i think non-weighten keys synth will be more suitable for our need.

sound cut off might not be a very big issue.

since already have a grand piano, but it cant be moved anywhere we go, i tried Korg TR before, i'm quite impressed by the piano sound, especially when u lower the keys for 1 octave, you can here the vibration of piano string for the very low note... i'm wondering is there a synth that can at least good for the sound i needed above, other than Korg TR and Yamaha MO6...and is Korg TR good in overall?

and i do read some reviews online abt Yamaha MO6, it's totally different thing to compare the user-friendliness to PSR series... whereas Korg TR review of ease to use is stil not bad...

is there any comments on Korg TR? and how does it compare to Roland Juno-G?

btw, i heard that most of the company release new series about 4-5 years, may i know Korg TR, Yamaha MO6 and Roland Juno-G is out for how many years already? is there any news that any of them are phasing out soon? and how much will they cost?

thanks

 

[Cheez]

Before we venture too much into the synth topic, let me try to encourage you to change your mind first...

First, you need to know that PSR series is an arranger keyboard. This is a totally different league compared to stage pianos and synths. One of the congregation in my church uses the PSR1000 as well. But our main is the RD150.

Secondly, you DON'T want to tweak the sounds too much. Tweaking refers more to analog sounds and for electronic music, when we want the cutey effects. These are not applicable to church music. If you need to tweak a sound to make it sound "realistic", you shouldn't get that keyboard. That means the basic wav file recorded is already flawed and no matter how you tweak, you can only go that far. Good acoustic sounds do not need tweaking to make it real.

The power of a synth is in the name - synthesizer (ie synthesize). You are able to tweak the sound not in the sense as you described, but changing the elements of the patch, algorhithms etc to make it sound "out of this world". For church use, the only "tweaking" you'll ever need is reverb, chorus, and EQ - all of which exist in a stage piano. You add reverb when the hall is too dry, chorus for layering of certain sounds, and making it sound brighter in an echoeic place to let the sound cut through (and duller in a non-echoeic place).

The power of a stage piano is in the quick user interface. A few examples:

1. You find yourself in an echoic room and the piano sound gets muddy. Many times we have to play in places we have not played before. So you want to change that parameter ASAP. In a synth, that will mean pressing a few buttons (on other models, that may mean searching a few menus). In a stage piano, the faders are right there for you to adjust on the spot.

2. You want to layer eg. piano and strings. In a synth, you have to pre-program that sound (if it's not already in the template - and I find their pre-programmed layer sound is always not to my liking). In a stage piano, it's as simple as pressing two keys together. Furthermore, you would want to quickly adjust the volume of each instrument during live playing (fading the strings off while piano is still playing etc). If this is not pre-programmed in a synth, it will be a headache. For a stage piano, it's all in front of you. And I can change it very quickly - eg I later piano1 and string1, then find the hall need something brighter to cut through - I can easily change to piano2 and string 1 without thinking too much. If that doesn't work, my next bar is changed to piano2 and string2 etc. And I tweak the EQ all at the same time while I'm playing - without worring about programming in detail.

3. Splitting the keyboard is another thing that may require programming. Stage piano - right in front of you.

If you quickly go through the sound pallette of a synth, you'll find 80-90% of the sound will be unsuble to you. You wouldn't be using UFO sound effects, hip-hop drum loops, some alien musical effects etc. In a digital piano, the sound is not less than a synth, but more applicable. They have a wider range of pianos, digital pianos, B3 hammonds and drawbar organs, strings, and yes, they do include some analog sounds as well nowadays etc. And it's a perfect combination to what your church already has - the Korg 01/W and Karma. With the Karma, you don't need another synth. DON'T GET A KORG. You already have the Karma. You want a different brand to complement.

My suggestion is for you to at least try out the RD700SX or the CP300 (esp the RD700SX). You'll understand what I mean when you spend about 30 minutes on it. I'm glad to see larger churches finally getting the idea and getting stage pianos instead of synths and workstations. Now that you say you intend to bring the keyboard around for camps etc, then my suggest is more geared towards the Yamaha CP300 for the build-in speakers. This will free you of having to bring large speakers. The RD series do not have build-in speakers - Yamaha CP300 is the only model of the stage piano category that has them. But the price is slightly higher.

If after trying these 2 models and you STILL think you want a synth, then my suggestion is the Roland Juno-G.

I've used arranger keyboards, workstations, synths, stage pianos, digital pianos, grand pianos, upright pianos, midi controllers using sound modules, midi controllers using softsampler/softsynths etc in different church settings (both in my home church and in other churches where I had to play). And my feeling is that the most applicable is still the stage piano. I've also used Korg, Roland, and Yamaha, and felt that Roland is the best fit, followed by Yamaha (although this last point is debatable due to personal preferences).

 

[Cheez]

Cornelius, actually after re-reading your post, it appears that I've overlooked one point you mentioned - and that's budget.

In this case, I would suggest the Juno-G.

 

[cornelius]

Urgent advice for Korg TR or Yamaha MO6 or Roland Juno-G, etc

Before we venture too much into the synth topic, let me try to encourage you to change your mind first...

First, you need to know that PSR series is an arranger keyboard. This is a totally different league compared to stage pianos and synths. One of the congregation in my church uses the PSR1000 as well. But our main is the RD150.

Secondly, you DON'T want to tweak the sounds too much. Tweaking refers more to analog sounds and for electronic music, when we want the cutey effects. These are not applicable to church music. If you need to tweak a sound to make it sound "realistic", you shouldn't get that keyboard. That means the basic wav file recorded is already flawed and no matter how you tweak, you can only go that far. Good acoustic sounds do not need tweaking to make it real.

The power of a synth is in the name - synthesizer (ie synthesize). You are able to tweak the sound not in the sense as you described, but changing the elements of the patch, algorhithms etc to make it sound "out of this world". For church use, the only "tweaking" you'll ever need is reverb, chorus, and EQ - all of which exist in a stage piano. You add reverb when the hall is too dry, chorus for layering of certain sounds, and making it sound brighter in an echoeic place to let the sound cut through (and duller in a non-echoeic place).

The power of a stage piano is in the quick user interface. A few examples:

1. You find yourself in an echoic room and the piano sound gets muddy. Many times we have to play in places we have not played before. So you want to change that parameter ASAP. In a synth, that will mean pressing a few buttons (on other models, that may mean searching a few menus). In a stage piano, the faders are right there for you to adjust on the spot.

2. You want to layer eg. piano and strings. In a synth, you have to pre-program that sound (if it's not already in the template - and I find their pre-programmed layer sound is always not to my liking). In a stage piano, it's as simple as pressing two keys together. Furthermore, you would want to quickly adjust the volume of each instrument during live playing (fading the strings off while piano is still playing etc). If this is not pre-programmed in a synth, it will be a headache. For a stage piano, it's all in front of you. And I can change it very quickly - eg I later piano1 and string1, then find the hall need something brighter to cut through - I can easily change to piano2 and string 1 without thinking too much. If that doesn't work, my next bar is changed to piano2 and string2 etc. And I tweak the EQ all at the same time while I'm playing - without worring about programming in detail.

3. Splitting the keyboard is another thing that may require programming. Stage piano - right in front of you.

If you quickly go through the sound pallette of a synth, you'll find 80-90% of the sound will be unsuble to you. You wouldn't be using UFO sound effects, hip-hop drum loops, some alien musical effects etc. In a digital piano, the sound is not less than a synth, but more applicable. They have a wider range of pianos, digital pianos, B3 hammonds and drawbar organs, strings, and yes, they do include some analog sounds as well nowadays etc. And it's a perfect combination to what your church already has - the Korg 01/W and Karma. With the Karma, you don't need another synth. DON'T GET A KORG. You already have the Karma. You want a different brand to complement.

My suggestion is for you to at least try out the RD700SX or the CP300 (esp the RD700SX). You'll understand what I mean when you spend about 30 minutes on it. I'm glad to see larger churches finally getting the idea and getting stage pianos instead of synths and workstations. Now that you say you intend to bring the keyboard around for camps etc, then my suggest is more geared towards the Yamaha CP300 for the build-in speakers. This will free you of having to bring large speakers. The RD series do not have build-in speakers - Yamaha CP300 is the only model of the stage piano category that has them. But the price is slightly higher.

If after trying these 2 models and you STILL think you want a synth, then my suggestion is the Roland Juno-G.

I've used arranger keyboards, workstations, synths, stage pianos, digital pianos, grand pianos, upright pianos, midi controllers using sound modules, midi controllers using softsampler/softsynths etc in different church settings (both in my home church and in other churches where I had to play). And my feeling is that the most applicable is still the stage piano. I've also used Korg, Roland, and Yamaha, and felt that Roland is the best fit, followed by Yamaha (although this last point is debatable due to personal preferences).

stage piano and the model u suggested are weighten keys rite? we don need a weighten key keyboard =)

btw, according to your advice, seems like only higher end of portatone fits the criteria of usability...rite?

if in terms of juno-g, TR and mo6... what're their pros and cons? if we compare the sound for the voices i want and i've listed in previous posts.

 

[Cheez]

Portasounds (aka arranger keyboards) are the worst to use for church settings. Unless your church uses the arranger function (1-man band). If not, they are not useful. Higher-end arranger keyboards are VERY powerful (eg Tyros 2 and G70) and can cost more than a workstation (in the range of $5000-6000). Not recommended at all.

Comparing Juno, TR and Mo ..... We just have to compare brands. Manufacturers can't spend too much time and money to come up with different pallete of sounds for each of the models. So the sound pallete is basically similar across all their models (generally speaking, there are exceptions of course like the Roland V-synth).

So we only have to look at the differences between the Roland, Yamaha and Korg sounds. And as I've already said - Roland gives you the best quality acoustic sounds in terms of realism. No personal preference here - it's just the plain truth. If you want electronic music, I would go for Korg and won't even think about Roland.

Piano - Roland's piano is the best. Try it to believe it. It can be darker than the others, but they also have brighter patches. Yamaha - higher end keys always sound tinkly. I can't figure out why till today, they can get it right! But in a church setting (large speakers, large hall), probably not a big problem. "Tinkly" sound helps to cut across to be heard clearly. But if you are going to do recording, it won't be realistic. Korg .... won't mention it.

Strings - Strings sections (ie real strings) - Roland is still the best. The original patches were programmed by the guru Eric Persing - that was years ago and it was the best. Today, it's still the most realistic. However, Korg and Yamaha is better for pads than Roland (ie the non-acoustic "strings" - electronic pads).

Woodwinds - flute/oboe - Roland again. The JV series was the ones that really brought up the realism of the flute and oboe - and that technology was about 8 years old. For saxophone - you need to know nobody does it well. Saxophone is just too difficult to sample and program because the playing is very complex and has many different tones to the notes. But I managed to get an extremely realistic soprano sax before on the Yamaha using their AWM and FM synthesis - only after extreme tweaking and programming, and finally using a breath controller + mod wheel control. That was the most reaslitic I ever got. Better than Roland. Managed to fool a quite a few people...

Drawbar organ (B3) - they all basically equal in quality across the board. Here, we need to see how easy it is to change the draw bar settings (ie do the keyboard has faders to let you change each drawbar quickly). The leslie effect is basically the same across all the brands. So I would say - ok across the board. Although I find Yamaha slightly worse in that they have preset organs that are pretty hard to tweak - to get the sound you want, you bascially have to change patch. Here, I must mention one competitor - that's the Kurzweil. They are some really good drawbar emulations.

Brass - Roland is still the most realistic. However..... you seldom use reaslitic pop brass. Many times, synth brass stabs works just as well in a church setting. So I would say, personal preference here.

E-piano - Yamaha wins here for me. Maybe it's because of their FM programming. The DX-7 type sound is always nice to hear. Roland doesn't do it quite as well. But Roland's Rhodes are pretty good. However, most of the time, we use the DX-7 type sound, occasional Rhodes, and hardly (almost never) use the other epianos like wurlitzers and clavs.

Others can give their comments.

 

[iansoh]

I've owned and played and recorded several synths for for different settings - church, rock, pop, jazz. From my experience, what I would advise is this: going for realistic sounds is going to be a useless endless chase. and it would be a waste of money too because the technology just keeps getting better. the second part of sounding 'realistic' is the keyboardists' techniques and voicings. a good soundset in the hands of a newbie would still sound bad, but a good keyboardist would make the best of an average sounding synth.

korg, roland and yamaha sounds each appeal to different types of player and different settings. There's a reason why the pros still play Korg synths in live settings. The Korg HI Synthesis system has an artifical fat roundness to the tone and generally over-emphasizes the low end of the sounds. when many instruments go into a mix it becomes thinner and easily lost in the mix. this is where I believe the HI synthesis has an advantage because it always sounds fat and cuts through easily. Just go watch live video recordings: Live8, britney spears, joss stone, elton john, eric clapton etc. you'll see Korg Triton synths the most often, followed by motif, followed by fantom. the 'realistic sounds' of yamaha and roland tend to sound thinner and more miserable than Korgs.

at the end of the day, it's impossible to generalise which synth is better for whatever purpose. it's what you make of the synth that counts. moreover, you say that there's gonna be more than one keyboardist playing this one synth. everyone has different preferences and opinions. So I feel it's quite pointless to do an in-depth objective comparison if you're talking about sounds.

there are other factors which would contribute to a more satisfactory decision: price, portability, looks, features, gimmicks, and most importantly re-sale value in case it turns out to be a while elephant (a common occurence).