Songwriting Questions
- Thread starter jaredboy
- Start date
centralcatchment
New member
I will try to answer this question even though lyric writing is not my forte. First to get this out of the way: Lyrics are important. Don't underestimate how you can totally ruin a good song my putting in lousy lyrics.
Second, lyrics can communicate something important. Or they can evoke powerful emotions. Or they can be funny. Or they can simply sound good, ie nobody knows that "kick out the jams mother lovelovelove" means but nobody can deny that it sounds great. Substandard lyrics fail to achieve any of these objectives. There must be some content.
It would really help if you had at least an "O" level in literature. Or if you read a lot of books, and you read and write often. Sorry, but this is the one of the few areas where intelligence and learning is actually useful. If you don't know how to do practical criticism, chances are you won't be good at writing because you can't tell what makes a lyric good.
Other than reading a lot of books, reviews of CDs, especially the in depth ones, are very useful. Because the reviewer will often talk more about the words than the music. (Natural since music is so hard to write about.) And they will point out a few really good lines that stand out, you can learn a lot that way. Another way to learn good lyric writing is to read really good lyrics. Morrissey and the Smiths are the absolute masters. Beatles are good lyric writers: what they do is very deceptively simple, but it is very hard to write simple lyrics and not make them sound like schlock. Forget about Bob Dylan because he is too cheem and only people with English degrees will appreciate him.
Not going to say too much about lyric writing in general but there are so many books out there and you can go read them yourself.
OK, after these general remarks, I can give you 2 artists who write very good lyrics in spite of their not mastering standard English. They are Bob Marley and ABBA. About Bob Marley, here are the lyrics of “Redemption Song”.
http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric....s-bob-marley/326f5783c5461a6048256945000e6461
The lyrics are so good that the grammar mistakes do not detract from the gravity of the lyrics – you will never laugh at his mistakes. Of course, Bob Marley was an extremely inspired man as he penned those words: he knew he was going to die.
ABBA, of course, wrote “Dancing Queen”, “Knowing Me Knowing You” and “The Day Before You Came”. All of them demonstrating mastery of lyric writing without mastery of English.
Counter-intuitively, I’m going to tell you that you shouldn’t break any grammar rules on purpose. ABBA and Bob Marley write lyrics in exactly the way they speak English. And that is a useful guideline. One good method of writing lyrics is you should always listen out for good lyrics. Every time somebody says a line or a phrase that sounds like a good lyric, write it down in your scrap book. Collect enough of these, and you have a lot of material to write songs with. Unless you are an expert, you should never fake the way that other people speak. If you are writing in Singlish because you just said something in Singlish, that is fine. So don’t write like a fake Englishman, or don’t fakely exaggerate your Singlish. Just write something the way you would have said it if you were speaking naturally. In verbatim.
Second, lyrics can communicate something important. Or they can evoke powerful emotions. Or they can be funny. Or they can simply sound good, ie nobody knows that "kick out the jams mother lovelovelove" means but nobody can deny that it sounds great. Substandard lyrics fail to achieve any of these objectives. There must be some content.
It would really help if you had at least an "O" level in literature. Or if you read a lot of books, and you read and write often. Sorry, but this is the one of the few areas where intelligence and learning is actually useful. If you don't know how to do practical criticism, chances are you won't be good at writing because you can't tell what makes a lyric good.
Other than reading a lot of books, reviews of CDs, especially the in depth ones, are very useful. Because the reviewer will often talk more about the words than the music. (Natural since music is so hard to write about.) And they will point out a few really good lines that stand out, you can learn a lot that way. Another way to learn good lyric writing is to read really good lyrics. Morrissey and the Smiths are the absolute masters. Beatles are good lyric writers: what they do is very deceptively simple, but it is very hard to write simple lyrics and not make them sound like schlock. Forget about Bob Dylan because he is too cheem and only people with English degrees will appreciate him.
Not going to say too much about lyric writing in general but there are so many books out there and you can go read them yourself.
OK, after these general remarks, I can give you 2 artists who write very good lyrics in spite of their not mastering standard English. They are Bob Marley and ABBA. About Bob Marley, here are the lyrics of “Redemption Song”.
http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric....s-bob-marley/326f5783c5461a6048256945000e6461
The lyrics are so good that the grammar mistakes do not detract from the gravity of the lyrics – you will never laugh at his mistakes. Of course, Bob Marley was an extremely inspired man as he penned those words: he knew he was going to die.
ABBA, of course, wrote “Dancing Queen”, “Knowing Me Knowing You” and “The Day Before You Came”. All of them demonstrating mastery of lyric writing without mastery of English.
Counter-intuitively, I’m going to tell you that you shouldn’t break any grammar rules on purpose. ABBA and Bob Marley write lyrics in exactly the way they speak English. And that is a useful guideline. One good method of writing lyrics is you should always listen out for good lyrics. Every time somebody says a line or a phrase that sounds like a good lyric, write it down in your scrap book. Collect enough of these, and you have a lot of material to write songs with. Unless you are an expert, you should never fake the way that other people speak. If you are writing in Singlish because you just said something in Singlish, that is fine. So don’t write like a fake Englishman, or don’t fakely exaggerate your Singlish. Just write something the way you would have said it if you were speaking naturally. In verbatim.
parablue74
New member
All the lyric books are not up to date... talking from a writer.. yes, I'm a writer, used to write for events..
In music, no lyrics apply, I mean, no regulations, no rules...
Example, Kurt Cobain can have bad lyrics, but who cares..
Remember, you are writing a song, not an oxford dictionary..
So, what in a song do you want to express out??? What??? Some sophisticated lyrics, some 'cheem' english that no one understands???
No, express your emotion in lyrics, start out on a song with lyrics that you best understand to express your utmost feelings you want to grasp at..then, find better words in your rhyming dictionary that make it sound better. But remember, emotion is outmost, and the vowels have to fit musically... that's the difference between lyrics writing and poetry. In lyrics writing, the words have to fit the music melodies, in poetry, it doesn't have to..
When you look within, your heart will find the words to speak..
When you look away, your mind get's you grasping for success..
It's not success that speaks the truth
It's the love that speaks the feeling
It doesn't need to rhyme
It just needs to touch
When it can touch your heart, it can touch many others
Cos you are human, as much as those who listen to you
You are not speaking to dogs, who only knows barking
You are speaking to humans, and we live with our feelings
So speak what you feel, and let your feelings be true
And your voice be an ever moment in time, dimensionless throughout past and future..
In music, no lyrics apply, I mean, no regulations, no rules...
Example, Kurt Cobain can have bad lyrics, but who cares..
Remember, you are writing a song, not an oxford dictionary..
So, what in a song do you want to express out??? What??? Some sophisticated lyrics, some 'cheem' english that no one understands???
No, express your emotion in lyrics, start out on a song with lyrics that you best understand to express your utmost feelings you want to grasp at..then, find better words in your rhyming dictionary that make it sound better. But remember, emotion is outmost, and the vowels have to fit musically... that's the difference between lyrics writing and poetry. In lyrics writing, the words have to fit the music melodies, in poetry, it doesn't have to..
When you look within, your heart will find the words to speak..
When you look away, your mind get's you grasping for success..
It's not success that speaks the truth
It's the love that speaks the feeling
It doesn't need to rhyme
It just needs to touch
When it can touch your heart, it can touch many others
Cos you are human, as much as those who listen to you
You are not speaking to dogs, who only knows barking
You are speaking to humans, and we live with our feelings
So speak what you feel, and let your feelings be true
And your voice be an ever moment in time, dimensionless throughout past and future..
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centralcatchment
New member
It's a misconception that Nirvana's lyrics are crap. They are not.
They are not poetry. I've read somewhere that he writes all his lyrics in 5 minutes before he starts singing his songs for the first time, but they work.
If you read his lyrics in Nevermind, they convey these things:
1. I wanna have fun, wanna have sex, love music, tralalala
2. I'm so bored and confused / I don't give a shit about life in general
3. F this shit (ie nevermind). In fact sometimes I'm going to break out into singing yadda yadda yadda because I dun give a shit anymore.
Attitudes which are very common in the genre of music known as punk. The sound of the words are good.
In fact, if you compare the lyrics of "Smells like Teen Spirit" and the "parody", "Smells like Nirvana" side by side, both songs are basically saying almost exactly the same thing. It is very difficult to parody "Smells like Teen Spirit" because it already contains so much parody.
I would suggest if you want to write lyrics, you should put some effort into decoding what other peoples' lyrics are trying to say, and learn.
They are not poetry. I've read somewhere that he writes all his lyrics in 5 minutes before he starts singing his songs for the first time, but they work.
If you read his lyrics in Nevermind, they convey these things:
1. I wanna have fun, wanna have sex, love music, tralalala
2. I'm so bored and confused / I don't give a shit about life in general
3. F this shit (ie nevermind). In fact sometimes I'm going to break out into singing yadda yadda yadda because I dun give a shit anymore.
Attitudes which are very common in the genre of music known as punk. The sound of the words are good.
In fact, if you compare the lyrics of "Smells like Teen Spirit" and the "parody", "Smells like Nirvana" side by side, both songs are basically saying almost exactly the same thing. It is very difficult to parody "Smells like Teen Spirit" because it already contains so much parody.
I would suggest if you want to write lyrics, you should put some effort into decoding what other peoples' lyrics are trying to say, and learn.
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parablue74
New member
There's some typo there...I meant..
'Example, Kurt Cobain can have 'bad' lyrics, but who cares..'
By the basis of those who look into the strict ways of writing lyrics, textbook methods, it's bad..but by the angle of trends and style, it's not.. that's what i mean..
The bad is 'bad'..
Basically, there were certain scenarios I have faced where some people I've known talks about following the proper english way of writing lyrics, where certain words may not fit the correct way of expression based on Oxford dictionary.. or, in a way, proper english..
I believe that's what the OP is talking about..
Example: like you stated... '3. F this shit (ie nevermind). In fact sometimes I'm going to break out into singing yadda yadda yadda because I dun give a shit anymore.'
'I dun give a shit anymore' is considered bad lyrics by oxford standards.. in proper english, that's wrong.. but that's slang.. I think you know what I mean..
At certain points of song lyrics writing, to me, it's more about expression, more about fitting trends/styles.. and if the words are more suggestive 'not being proper', sounds great and fits perfectly, that's it accepted.
But my core message is, write with your emotions as top priority..then, improvement your expression from there..
As for the misconception that Kurt writes bad lyrics.. well.. it's becos when he performs, he sings his lyrics with many mistakes.. he's high, you know what i mean..trying listening to his live performance, hear his words vs the words he wrote in his lyrics, they don't sync..
'Example, Kurt Cobain can have 'bad' lyrics, but who cares..'
By the basis of those who look into the strict ways of writing lyrics, textbook methods, it's bad..but by the angle of trends and style, it's not.. that's what i mean..
The bad is 'bad'..
Basically, there were certain scenarios I have faced where some people I've known talks about following the proper english way of writing lyrics, where certain words may not fit the correct way of expression based on Oxford dictionary.. or, in a way, proper english..
I believe that's what the OP is talking about..
Example: like you stated... '3. F this shit (ie nevermind). In fact sometimes I'm going to break out into singing yadda yadda yadda because I dun give a shit anymore.'
'I dun give a shit anymore' is considered bad lyrics by oxford standards.. in proper english, that's wrong.. but that's slang.. I think you know what I mean..
At certain points of song lyrics writing, to me, it's more about expression, more about fitting trends/styles.. and if the words are more suggestive 'not being proper', sounds great and fits perfectly, that's it accepted.
But my core message is, write with your emotions as top priority..then, improvement your expression from there..
As for the misconception that Kurt writes bad lyrics.. well.. it's becos when he performs, he sings his lyrics with many mistakes.. he's high, you know what i mean..trying listening to his live performance, hear his words vs the words he wrote in his lyrics, they don't sync..
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