Practising Jazz

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Thanks Bro Frank for the valuable advice here.....

Yes I do understand the need for Improvision & comping (and all those other factors to make it sound good)......and as you mentioned -Time & Experience is needed for this...(that's what I am doing now taking lesson from Alvin and Band Rehersing) - -

Tama Goh said to me (when I went to see him & Monterio play in Regent) - "" Eric you must make sure that you must practice & practice until you are able to get a nice good chick-sound from your left-foot, and a right hand that really swing - so for now never forget the Basics....

I comp (trying to play what's in my head using my foot and legs) not easy lah but I am trying hard here - -but I pay alot of attention/focus to get the Swing sounding good...not that I cant swing - just wanna make it sound much better.

I'm not experienceenough mah here

Regards
Eric
 
You are clearly very eager to learn and improve, and you feel that taking lessons from various exponents will help you achieve your goals. But all your teachers will also tell you that you that apart from practising hard, you must play with other people in a real musical situation every opportunity you get. Never mind if you fumble..that's where you learn your most valuable lessons.

Strangely enough I have never actually seen you play with other musicians yet...and my numerous invitations for you to come and jam at Tanglin have not resulted in you behind the set actually jamming a few songs. The real test of your ability as a drummer is how you perform in an emsemble (band) situation...how you interprete your contribution to the music, and how you express and execute your playing. It is then that your true attributes and flaws can be assessed.

I have often seen young drummers with impressive chops and technique...stick spinning even..but when called upon to play just cannot match the expectations they created.

To tell the truth....very few people wants to listen to drum solos only...let alone pay to do so. ( maybe an audience comprising solely of drummers will disagree with me !) But the reality is that drummers must always be part of the music ...an essential part albeit. Hence drummers must first and foremost be a musician. At some point in your learning process you will have to look beyond the rudiments of paradiddles, sticking, subdivisions, polyrhythms, Moeller technique etc etc...and get on with making good music.
 
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Just a few thoughts...

I think Eric is an excellent student and learning musician!

Reasons:

1) He is extremely hardworking!!!
2) Very open minded and very accepting to new ideas
3) Really listens
4) He READS!!!
5) He is the least timid of my students and actually forces himself to jam regularly with his pals even though he might be too tired too after work...and even tho he is the least experienced...

So like Blofeld advised....he is never afraid of fumbling and actually applies himself as best as he could in an actually playing situation. Though not at Tanglin but as long as he is playing ya?

6) He makes it a point to study recordings and watches gigs as much as he could...
7) And like Blofeld advised....he never once see chops/solos as priority but a necessity nevertheless...
8) He studies the structure of music and learns melodies
9) He studies time
10) He HAS NO EGO (can see from his endless/selfless efforts in getting the Exchange going)

So Eric....in my opinion...you're #1!!! There're tons of more experienced drummers/musicians who can't even do half of the above....So keep going the way you're going and I think you'll make an excellent drummer in your own right! Keep it UP!!!
 
I believe playing with other Bands is very important - that's why I have my regular Band that I am Rehersing twice a week, so is Taking lesson from a good drumming instructor - this way - hopefully I will improve at a faster pace.

Yes I did, I was at Tanglin playing Blues for about 4 months or so (something happen lah - can let you know over the phone quarrel with my BandLeader there)...then I proceed to learning Jazz.

I Reherse twice a week, Saturday is Drum Lesson day (work in the morning on Saturday), Monday Wednesday is my practice nites, and Friday my entire Band Members and me will go to a Jazz Venue to see different Bands play (also learning)....leaving myself only A Sunday (which is my Family Day) thus unable to go to Tanglin for Jamming which is always on a Sunday only.

Frankly my Bro - Impressive Chops Tecniques and Stick-Spinning are very entertaining. I feel that a Drummer is also like an Entertainer - entertaining the crowds who is watching him play....The recent DrumFest 2007 regards Gilbert (the Philippino Drummer as a very entertaining drummer - he won because he won the hearts of the judges & people there)....

Groove is important, so is Solo, without Solo drumming will be so boring. When you do trading in Jazz (that's Soloing what) and you are pretty Musical with that I know too. As long as you Solo Musically & Dynamically in that situation.

Jazz is a kind of Music different from other forms, but the rest are also not easy...like those Fast-Double Bass Drum thing (Mike Portnoy Stuffs), those Fusion Stuffs (Fusing Jazz and other Genre together).....even Pop is also not easy. Music is diverse. Jazz require Improvision in Drumming (Creativeness) is never easy in a way, but Rock/Pop Bands who wants a Drummer to Play "Cover" is also not easy to nail too......

So all Genre are not easy just that some drummers are more into a certain kind of Music so they do it better for that kind of Genre, and not all Jazz Drummer can do Mike Portnoy Stuffs or Steve Gadd Stuffs too what..Hor?
 
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I'd like to drop in at your rehearsals :) where are you guys rehearsing ? Who's in your group?

Yeah..drumming looks easy to the innocent and uninitiated...but the more you learn the more you realise you still have to learn. Perfection is impossible to attain..I will settle for mere competence.

When I was playing a lot of gigs back in the 60s and 70s (inbetween work and studies) I though I was quite good. But as I started to study drums and music deeper much later on in life, I realised how little I knew and how much I have to learn...Maybe if I turned pro then, I would be a much better drummer today but probably financially koyak ! I went after a career (of course non music lah) and money and sold out music so to speak. Nowadays I am quite content to do what I can and enjoy what I have...so my contemporaries like Louis and Tony have soared far above me as drummers but it bothers me little. Money can compensate a lot, take my word for it.

I have only the greatest respect for young musicians who give up a promising well paid and secure career for the pasion of music. I personally know many young people with good degrees and jobs who gave up to pursue music as a career full time...in Singapore !!! God bless you and keep you, guys.

But if I had the chance to relive my youth I would not have chosen that path...too much of a coward i guess...when I have known wealth, it terrifies me to be poor.

I guess that's the trade you make.
 
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hey frank, mark here. the dude with the weird hair, we talked. you remind me of my dad, almost exactly the same. he's better looking though if u dun mind me saying, u two shld meet. smoke a cigar, stuff men of age do.
 
hey frank, mark here. the dude with the weird hair, we talked. you remind me of my dad, almost exactly the same. he's better looking though if u dun mind me saying, u two shld meet. smoke a cigar, stuff men of age do.

hahaha..and here I am the guy with thinning hair and bulging tummy !! Don't laugh..most of you would do worse when you live another 30 years huh ? Would luv the meet your dad...I don't smoke though - gave it up 27 years ago to this day...but maybe he and can go to a health spa and get worked over by some nubile young lass like all dirty old buggers like to do.

One can't turn back the clock...but with age, one must learn to be at peace with oneself. Great memories and achievements and no regrets lah. Hope your old man like dat too.
 
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Hahahaha - you 2 har Mark & Frank.

Well said Frank, I totally agree with you" My greatest Respect to all those Drummers who pursue Music as a Career in Singapore" which is really Tough.hhhhhhhhhh man. It takes alot of guts and that's the main reason why I always feel that "We Must Indeed Give Them Our Utmost Support"

Same here, if I were to be given a choice again back then - I will still not choose this route - because to me "It will become something Stressful cause it is then my Bread & Butter (and to be a Professional Drummer, one really has to be good to survive here - so tough man, and I dont think I can enjoy the drumming passion like I do now"..........so it does take a lot of guts to choose a path following the passion here...I take my Hats Off to all you Professional Drummers..My Salute.

Still remember, when Tony Zee last year-he told me he support his entire Family (wife & send all his children doing a Degree in US or UK) - I was full of Admiration for him, drumming so hard for the good of the Family - It's really not easy...and I believed it's the same for all the Professional Drummers here....You have my Utmost Support brothers.

Eric
 
Eh.....how come his thread now suddenly become a career and talk of wealth ah? Please stick to thread topic leh...or simply start a "I'm a millionaire-drum-hobbyist" thread in "KopiTiam" here: http://soft.com.sg/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=32

And errr by the way....doesn't mean making less money only we're not happy what...pro musicians are doing what they love most and to most that is more than enough...whose who to make judgement on the importance of materialistic wealth anyway....music is happiness to them and happiness is their wealth ya?? Fortunately this isn't some christian forum...cos I feel an urge of 101 bible teaching coming....ahhhhh...okok...back to thread topic....
 
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Eh.....how come his thread now suddenly become a career and talk of wealth ah? Please stick to thread topic leh...or simply start a "I'm a millionaire-drum-hobbyist" thread in "KopiTiam" here: http://soft.com.sg/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=32

And errr by the way....doesn't mean making less money only we're not happy what...pro musicians are doing what they love most and to most that is more than enough...whose who to make judgement on the importance of materialistic wealth anyway....music is happiness to them and happiness is their wealth ya?? Fortunately this isn't some christian forum...cos I feel an urge of 101 bible teaching coming....ahhhhh...okok...back to thread topic....

The topic is practising jazz ..yeah..why do we practise ? To improve ourselves so that we can become better drummers..get the big gigs...become top ranking....reap our rewards = fame and MONEY. Or something like that.

Or are we just doing it for the love and joy and live off charity and goodwill? Money not important leh.

Let's not get hypocritical about money. Money makes the world go round....it pays the bills and fills the hunger. It even can buy a ticket to heaven, if one believes what some of these rich churches are preaching.

But what started this topic going was an admiration of the courage of those young musicians who forego more secure careers and wealth for the life of a pro musician...that's passion and commitment.

Not all pro musicians love their jobs lah..most are stuck in it because it is the only thing they can do well. Loving the act of making music is not the same as enjoying the life and tribulations of a working musician scrapping for work, recognition and lousy pay.

If you chose music as your career then money must be one of the important considerations or you must be dreaming.

Let's not knock it....wealth is always a desirable thing. Better a rich and happy drummer than a poor and talented one !!

Just my 2 cents worth.
 
Exactly, the topic is practicing jazz....ermmm, like the topic starter asked, he is more interested in knowing how to practice not "why do we practice"...so only constructive opinions that directs the topic please.

No one implied any hypocrisy about money here...I believe we all here who may not be millionaires are at least smart enough to know money pay bills and buys you meals...thus don't need reminding here...cos again...this isn't the thread topic...

wow, i never knew any church preached about buying faith and a chance for heaven...but then again...this isn't the thread topic....so I shan't try to find out here...

"""But what started this topic going was an admiration of the courage of those young musicians who forego more secure careers and wealth for the life of a pro musician...that's passion and commitment."""

Once again....this wasn't the topic...and from what I've read, I don't think anyone drove this thread to that topic....so let's not get hypocritical about "Practicing Jazz" here...tks!

Yes, not all pro-musicians are always happy with their work...but that's just life and happens with any job...and I think although we're just mere poorer folks, most of us are mentally rich enough to know that...but then again...this isn't the thread topic...


"""Let's not knock it....wealth is always a desirable thing. Better a rich and happy drummer than a poor and talented one !! """

OOhhh yes...wealth is a desirable thing....thats why most who love their art strive to always enrich their musical minds....

so now my question is....what is the motive for changing this topic to a topic of wealth and career choice?

Lets stick to thread topic please....
 
okie guys, lets play nice now.
i remember the old forum and i wldn';t want to see anyone banned or anything to the likes.
 
The topic is practising jazz ..yeah..why do we practise ? To improve ourselves so that we can become better drummers..get the big gigs...become top ranking....reap our rewards = fame and MONEY. Or something like that.

The Topic is practicing Jazz (absolutely correct) To Improve ourself (also correct) – for a purpose of getting Big-Gigs (Not Necessary – comes what may is a better option.), becoming Top-Ranking here (Is never to be decided by oneslf – It’s the Market that dictate this) – reaping Fame & Rewards ( if it come -take it) - - - - but any Genre of Music can achieve this – Not Solely JAZZ only.

Or are we just doing it for the love and joy and live off charity and goodwill? Money not important leh.
To some drummers – YES (to each his own), Money is important but not the most important as long as it get us through life and it depends on how one looks at it – To you it’s the most important.

Let's not get hypocritical about money. Money makes the world go round....it pays the bills and fills the hunger. It even can buy a ticket to heaven, if one believes what some of these rich churches are preaching.

Everyone knows we need money to survive here….and A Ticket to heaven is FREE OF CHARGE – you don’t need to buy it – It’s OFFERED TO YOU when the day comes.

Not all pro musicians love their jobs lah..most are stuck in it because it is the only thing they can do well. Loving the act of making music is not the same as enjoying the life and tribulations of a working musician scrapping for work, recognition and lousy pay.

In life, nobody actually love their job 100% not only in Drumming as a Profession – unless you’re your own Boss. “Loving the act of making music is not the same as enjoying the life and tribulations of a working musician scrapping for work, recognition and lousy pay” - - but that’s life as quoted – give them the respect as a Drummer , as a Musician, as a Human.


If you chose music as your career then money must be one of the important considerations or you must be dreaming.

Why Can’t it be Passion, as long as the drummer wont die of Hunger …Drumming for life.

Let's not knock it....wealth is always a desirable thing. Better a rich and happy drummer than a poor and talented one !!

Frank I am wondering – Are you Promoting Drumming or Wealth here – or or are you Demoting and Demoralising Soft Drummers here by making such a statement...Rich/Happy Drummer vs. Poor/Talented one.

Hahahaha - I cannot imagine if this is the Slogan that is going to appear at the back of our DXS Tees "Better A Rich/Happy Drummer then a Poor/Talented Drummer" - - - this is in contrary to "Inspired To Drum , Drumming To Inspire" and so working against our DXS Objective here.

It also goes to say that: If you are Poor and Untalented - Drumming is never mean't for you - forget it !. Which is absolutely not true.



Frank: - Take Note


As a Jam-Master in Tanglin, you have your Dos & Don'ts - so do we have it here in Soft's Forum (our House-Rules) ..... Kindly abide by the Rules & Regulation here. In case you are not aware. We at Soft are Promoting Music & Drumming here (our DXS), not demotivating local Drummers.....This is not condon here. Also no mention of Politics (you didn't here) and Religion (which you did) - as you quoted: - can buy a ticket to heaven, if one believes what some of these rich churches are preaching. - as these are very sensitive issues.

Kenny Hogan had been Banned from this forum, and we likewise give no exception here to anyone - if things get out of hands.

Blurred: Thanks for the reminder - rest assure Soft will never be like the same old Forum - We Initiate What We Have To Do For The Good Of The Drumming Community At Large Here to keep it going Healthy....This is what we are all here for.

To The General Drummers Here At Large : - Don't believed that Jazz Is More Demanding than any other Genre (This is not True) - - Rock is also very demanding (Physically) depending on what sort of demand is required for that kind of songs there and then - If you do not have the ability to keep time Double-Paddling and keeping time for a few songs (I know many of you can Blast-Beat for an Hour) - you're out ! - Isn't this also Demanding? .... Get a Jazz Drummer (a not so Versatile Drummer who only can play Jazz Music) to do this - He will die flat out there ...... As a Drummer we must be Versatile , that's why DXS came out with Sharing Program in our meetup - together as a community we learn more, be more flexible, as we adapt and learn to appreciate these different style of Drumming, and each style of Drumming has it's own demand in the way it's being executed - This way we excel altogether in time - We wanna play Fusion Drumming, we have to be flexible.

Whoever says Jazz is Ultimate (if there is such a person quoting is not true), it is the enablement to play all this different style that is Ultimate at end of the day - - - Tony Zee is a very Versatile Drummer, he doesn't only play Jazz Alone (60 years of age now - and still double-paddling very fast), so is Tama Goh (though not so old) - We should follow their footsteps - have an open-mind here .

Most importantly Having The Right Attitude Towards Drumming and respect fellow Drummers ......... It is this Culture that denotes DXS, and our current Strong Bonding Of DXS Community Of Drummers.

You can be the Richest Drummer In The World, but having the Wrong Attitude Towards Drumming As A Whole - What does that makes you ? Is Drumming really just about how good or how rich a person is? NO ! ...... I rather be a Poorer Drummer with the Right Attitude and I don't really have To Be The Best though I must have a drive and a passion in drumming - But as long as I have the right attitude ----- what I will have and gain at the end of the day is something money can Never Buy - That is - Genuine and Sincere Friendship from fellow Drummers no matter at what level they are at ....... and This is a PRICELESS Possession......with this Why Would I or We not be Happy?


Your Moderator.
Eric
 
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This your little playground - so have it your way.

But get these straight...

1) I am not promoting jazz as a genre over others. I love to play other genres as well.

2) I have not and am not promoting the wonders of being rich. I am just just not hypocritical about money.

3) I also have no intention of demotivating people who want to play drums...although it is quite evident some people here do not need much demotivating anyway.

4) I am also not digging up religion although someone else here first mentioned Bible 101..and I thought I'd ought to point out that some churches (and Buddhist temples of late) are quite mercenary in their philosopy and approach. Facts, not criticism.

Enough said.

The old forum was actually more interesting and honest although some discussions got quite heated. It soon degenerated into a self-admiration society filled with sensitive souls and tender egos...all only interested in their secluded world of "drumming" at the expense of reality.

But this forum actually lives up to it's name - SOFT- read: gentle, fragile, tender.. .

So I must handle with care yah...or feelings may get damaged.

Just shower praises among ourselves
And fill the room with love
Let's ignore the real evils outside
Drumming will make us rise above

Our lives devoted to banging the skins
Cymbals, gongs bells and garbage bins
Have faith drumbrothers and stay strong
If other musicians say we don't belong

Never mind if they say we're all noise
After all - boys will be boys
Lest we mature into the world of men
Our childish games will come to an end
 
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For Your Info: SOFT also happens to be the nick (of the Owner of this Forum here) - However, don't be misleaded. the truth is that the management of this Forum is really not as Gentle or as Fragile or even as Tender as what you perceived or as it's name implies ... SOFT. For those who had been around here for a while - knows best that we tolerate no nonsence.

My Advice; - Play By The Rules Of The Game Here ! yes it's my perogative as I am the Moderator....In a way, this is what we called ... "RESPECT" and respect our house rules.

Talking about Reality = The Reality is that this is a Healthy & Nice Forum and we love it this way as it is. The Objective of this Forum is to Promote The Drumming Passion and never was vice-versa - This is also the Reality Here. You must get this right. Learn to accept it.

So yes handle with care, be careful with your choice of words - so as not to hurt the General Public Feelings here at Large.

Thank You

Eric
 

Kenny Hogan had been Banned from this forum, and we likewise give no exception here to anyone - if things get out of hands.
Eric


WELL WELL WELL....I am here hardly a week and you are threatening to ban me for being "frank" and outspoken...wow..I am mortified !!

This must be the forum record. What will I do with the rest of my life once I am banned from this esteemed forum of Lummers ? Never mind...ban ...ban lor. Everything that comes around goes around. Meanwhile I will continue posting until you have enough of me.

I supposed Kenny was axed because he too had the testicular fortitude and perception of reality to call a dud a dud...or whatever.

It didn't take me long to develop an impression about this forum...which was confirmed when I saw the crowd at the recent exchange : mostly young tender egos longing to be massaged and assured.

You talk about the older drummers like Tony or Tama...but you only see them occasionally at your workshops or the odd exchange. They seldom, if ever, post here...neither does Jimmy, Boon Gee, Louis, Wen, Pragasam, Nalin, Dul Rahmat(who was at your recent exchange) and a host of experienced working drummers whose views and advice would benefit all of you more than the mutual backslapping that goes on here most of the time.

AND WHY ? Because most of you guys are so young and immature...lost in a world of your making...getting your priorities wrong ... and rejecting the experience and lessons learnt, often painfully, by your predecessors. Some of the comments you make reveal the shallowness of your thoughts. Unless one becomes part of your cheerleading activities, one is an outcast.

Pardon this old man....but I think I have just about seen and heard enough.

I have no axe grind here : no drum-school to promote, no goods to sell, no image to project.....I do not really need to spend time posting comments here that will get negative reactions just because some fragile egos and psyches are ruffled. And I am not here to win popularity contests.

So if you cannot tahan my comments...ban me lor. I will be honoured.
 
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Well Frank - That was a general commence I made - that overdoing things and getting out of hand - disregarding the Forum Rules are subject to banned.

Anything wrong with this statement - It's not a Threat. But look at yourself and how you responded to our House Rules....and you call yourself Matured (unlike us) when you do not even understand the very simple facts that "Every House Has It's Rule & Regulation"

A Country has it's Dos & Dont's, A Company has that too, Every Individual home has it's own which are different, so do WE at Soft and it is our Right, and if you would - Please Respect that.

Thanks

Eric
 

To The General Drummers Here At Large : - Don't believed that Jazz Is More Demanding than any other Genre (This is not True) - - Rock is also very demanding (Physically) depending on what sort of demand is required for that kind of songs there and then - If you do not have the ability to keep time Double-Paddling and keeping time for a few songs (I know many of you can Blast-Beat for an Hour) - you're out ! - Isn't this also Demanding? .... Get a Jazz Drummer (a not so Versatile Drummer who only can play Jazz Music) to do this - He will die flat out there ...... As a Drummer we must be Versatile , that's why DXS came out with Sharing Program in our meetup - together as a community we learn more, be more flexible, as we adapt and learn to appreciate these different style of Drumming, and each style of Drumming has it's own demand in the way it's being executed - This way we excel altogether in time - We wanna play Fusion Drumming, we have to be flexible.

Whoever says Jazz is Ultimate (if there is such a person quoting is not true), it is the enablement to play all this different style that is Ultimate at end of the day - - - Tony Zee is a very Versatile Drummer, he doesn't only play Jazz Alone (60 years of age now - and still double-paddling very fast), so is Tama Goh (though not so old) - We should follow their footsteps - have an open-mind here .


Your Moderator.
Eric


Just because I have posted some articles on Jazz does not mean I am belittling other genres....why so defensive ? Why try to put words in my mouth?

And there is such a thing as skills and technique as opposed to pure physical stamina and endurance. To compare the technical requirements of jazz and fusion to the extreme physical athleticism of hard rock, metal, blast beats etc is just not appropriate and ill informed.

To say that a young drummer who only knows how to thrash wildly to death metal for 30 minutes non stop.. is as good as a cultured drummer who can play jazz, latin, fusion pop and such...is pure and irresponsible fantasy. It will discourage our young drummers to learn the finer points of drumming.

How many young drummers pause to think how their music (be it rock, punk, thrash whatever) has evolved thoughout the history of modern music? Is it healthy to just restrict oneself to a narrow genre without at least understanding and knowing where it all came from?

Without a proper understanding of the evolution of popular music over the past 100 years, one is only superficial and shallow as a musician. You don't want to know about the blues, Jazz(swing, bebop, hardbop, cool, avantgarde, freejazz), rock and roll, R&B, Motown soul, Merseyside, Surfer rock, Disco, etc etc...and you just wanna play thrash blast beat? FINE ...you loss not mine.

Drums ? Heck the modern drumset did not even appear until the 1920s... and the beat as we know it today has only ever been around since the 50s and 60s.

And how much of all this do you know ?

BTW it's PEDAL...not PADDLE.
 
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Well Frank - That was a general commence I made - that overdoing things and getting out of hand - disregarding the Forum Rules are subject to banned.

Anything wrong with this statement - It's not a Threat. But look at yourself and how you responded to our House Rules....and you call yourself Matured (unlike us) when you do not even understand the very simple facts that "Every House Has It's Rule & Regulation"

A Country has it's Dos & Dont's, A Company has that too, Every Individual home has it's own which are different, so do WE at Soft and it is our Right, and if you would - Please Respect that.

Thanks

Eric

I RESPECT RULES.

What exactly are your House Rules? Where can I read them?

Who interprete these rules if discrepancy arises?

Are your rules applied equally and fair to all?

All I hear are complaints and threats...be specific please.
 
Frank Frank, I think you are over-reacting here..... I quoted: -

Whoever says Jazz is Ultimate (if there is such a person quoting is not true), it is the enablement to play all this different style that is Ultimate at end of the day.

No Names was mentioned - it's just a general commence..so never was I defensive here ? or am trying to put words into your mouth.... just to clarify.
 
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