Piano Pedaling

[pf]

Hey people, read in a book and saw something intriguing.

A pianist said: "We have two pedals with which to work: the damper pedal, sometimes called the loud pedal, and the shift, or soft pedal. In the process of lifting the dampers of the strings, and in the short space of travel between using no pedal and complete pedal, there are literally twenty or thirty different degrees of pressure one can use..."

Anybody has any comment on this? Or any pedaling techniques to share?

I wonder if the degrees of pressure makes a difference in digital pianos/keyboards as well.

 

[Cheez]

This is a question for piano_ex! Pedaling techniques are pretty complex in classical music. But you won't see them written in scores. All you see is pedal on and off, but it never tells you exactly how to use it. I've heard that Debussy hardly put pedaling in this scores (and I can concur that as I play quite a bit of Debussy) - he basically gave instructions to use the pedal "how you like it" - basically what feels and hears best.

Yes, you can pedal softly or hardly. Different pressure will give different results. Pedaling also works the opposite - it does not just sustain, but stops the notes (when released). How it's released also makes a difference. Also know that damper pedal will add resonance between notes and how it sounds depends on how you use it. I've also heard that Franz Liszt had at least 23 different ways to use the pedal which he used to teach. I wish I know what those ways are!

For keyboard/digital piano, you lose a lot of the intricacies of pedaling. The resonance works in the strings of a real piano, which is difficult to emulate. Some digital pianos add string resonance modeling into it to attempt to emulate that. Others had half-pedaling functions (which you'll need pedals that support half-pedaling). But it's all limited. You'll understand when you play on the real piano. Try using different pressure and speed etc to pedal on and pedal off. And the effect can be vastly different.

Ok. Hand over to the piano expert - piano_ex, come in!

 

[piano_ex]

funny that my student give me the link and asked me to reply this =)

the first question is, may i know pf, the book that you read is a work of literature from what year? I believe that it's quite and old book since it only states 2 pedal (the middle pedal is invented much later: if I'm not wrong, during the impressionistic period ... one of the piano maker tries to make the third pedal and of course brought it to the exhibition in France)

The pedaling technique for classical pianist is a complex thing and the subject can easily cover an entire book (there are really a book that covers only pedaling). In Classical piano playing, the pedal function is not as simple as prolonging/sustaining the note (the first role teacher will teach the student). Since as you know, when you press the pedal, all the dampers will be lifted and in the end, make symphathetic strings resonates as well.

If we're talking about the use of pedal, it's really really a lot ... you can use fully, you can used it rhythmycally together with a chord, during a fast passage and a lot of other thing.

But actually what the book tells you is that literally, it's the position of the damper. As you know, when you press the pedal it lift the damper. This mechanism is not a on/off thing like a button. (press ... on .... release ... off) But it's like a lever. And since it's a lever, the amount of opening that you can have at a certain time is different. For instance, actually lots of lower grade piano, doesn't have the damper lifted up all the way only when the pedal is all the way down. Most of it is only like 3/4, and the damper is all away from the string already. So with this knowledge, of course you need to control the pedal well with your feet so that you can do full pedaling, or only releasing the damper a lil-bit ... (sets the string a bit freer to resonate but still having the damped sound) and from that to the full lifted up damper which will set the string free to resonate.

It's pedaling in miniscule level that the book is talking. But to tell you the truth, 30 degree of pedaling is exaggarating =) ..... the difference between one and the other is so subtle. For me personally, to try being so precise with your pedaling is a waste of time. What you need to work on is what sound you producing. What kind of sound you produce, and the ability to have that sound with your pedaling technique. Because to tell you the truth, you practice at home and then you say to yourself, "okay... this passage need 22/30 pedaling ... okay, get it!" .... then you go to your recital hall .... and you apply your precise 22/30 pedalling .... you'll be surprised that it sounded different. First, the piano is different ... and then, the acoustic of the room and the hall is so much different.

So that's my opinion =) ..... but yea ... people at that time do tends to want people to take them as God by saying things like this.... Sensational mah ... (same with people nowadays actually ..... A lot of musician tells you that they don't practice at all when actually the truth is they practice really REALLY SERIOUSLY long hour) so that people will take them as geniuses or really talented.

ps: I'm not saying that there are no people who are really talented and don't need to practice =)

 

[Cheez]

Actually, besides the usual 3 pedals in an upright piano, there's also the sostenuto pedal in the grand piano.

Thanks piano_ex for the detailed explanation. Actually, most of the time (more so in digital piano arena and improvisations), my observation is the overuse of pedal by most people rather than lack of it. Worse so when they start to layer. In fact in layering (particularly when strings or pads are being layered), I always advise not using the damper at all. Use the fingers to hold the individual notes you want to sustain instead of using the pedal. It's a totally different kind of playing skill. Eg. many times, the highest note would be sustained - I would hold the 5th finger down sustaining it while the rest of the fingers play other notes without sustain - and this can happen for a number of bars.

 

[piano_ex]

very true cheez =)

ah, actually the original 3rd pedal is sostenuto pedal .... debussy started to use it in his composition ... in the preludes...

and for upright piano, the left pedal (soft/shift) is for me "fake" cuz it doesn't follow the same mechanism (shifting the mallet to the right so that it won't hit all the string, therefore soften the sound: but changing the tone) .... and the middle pedal in upright is just lowering the felt ... therefore dampen the sound....

 

[Cheez]

You're right. The upright soft pedal is a real fake - it moves the mallets closer to the strings instead of shifting to the side like the grand. Because it moves closer to the strings, it feels different when played (touch becomes lighter). Don't quite like it either.

 

[pf]

Hi Cheez and piano_ex,

thanks for your views and detailed discussion! I know I would learn a lot from you guys!

The book is titled "Great Pianists Speak" which consists of interviews of a number of classical pianists by Adele Marcus published in 1979. The one whom I quoted from is Jorge Bolet. As Cheez did, he also thought that people over pedal. He thought that besides the pedal, fingers and wrists strength helps in providing the tones of the playing.

Yes, piano_ex, the book is old but not that old. What a great observation by you! Bolet just didn't mention it in that paragraph.

I agree Cheez, the effect of using the different pressure in pedal is much greater in the grand piano that I laid my hands....opps, in this case, foot on! I experimented with different pressure of pedaling in digital ones too before I came across this book. I thought it was unorthodox since nobody ever talk to me on the pressure of pedaling, so I didn't dare to tell anyone! :mrgreen:

What piano_ex is true, different instruments at different places sound differently with the pedal. So, one gota adjust accordingly.

I will try not using the damper in string/organ voice, as Cheez suggested. Korgs are merciless if I missed the pedaling on string/organ voice. Yamahas aree much more gracious! Hahaha....thanks for the tip Cheez! A few pianists in the book also talked about finger pedaling, which I supposed is what Cheez described.

It's super interesting to see the classical pianists (various nationalities, but mostly touring in america but educated in Europe) share about their experiences! A little book review as follows, they talked about:

-finger pedaling,
-using the 3 pedals (Karl Ulrich Schnabel said in the book that he wrote "Modern Techniques on Pedaling", is that the book you said, piano_ex?),
-practising scales,
-memorising pieces,
-working on new pieces,
-life as concert pianists,
-life as concert pianists their whole life,
-young punks playing Liszt to show off (lol),
-young punks entering competitions and touring before they ground themselves adequately in music,
-revising the competitions age limit to 28 and above (!),
-major competitions should be held once every 3 years or so,
-many pianists are lying when they say they didn't practice (LOL!)
-and many more interesting stuff

List of great pianists interviewed as follows:
1. Gina Bachauer
2. Karl Ulrich Schnabel
3. Claude Frank
4. Jorge Bolet
5. Rudolf Firkusny
6. Alicia de Larrocha
7. Garrick Ohlsson
8. John Browning

This book is entertaining, funny, inspiring and a super fun read! Anybody interested can get it at the National Library after I returned it.

 

[piano_ex]

-many pianists are lying when they say they didn't practice (LOL!)

See?? =)

hahaha ...

I think i've read this book before, and yes pf ... 1979 IS considered old, and I think it's just the date of publication, most of this interview took place way longer than that ... hahaha, Jorge Bolet Lizst is pretty interesting to listen to =)

There are another book interview a lot of pianist actually, which i believe have more pianist than this, including Horowitz ....

Actually that's not the book, but there are many books written about pedaling =)

 

[pf]

hehe....the photos inside looks like the pianists are in this century lah.

The reason given for lying about practice is in case something goes wrong. Haha...

Oh, just curious...I read in the book (lazy to go and find which pianist said) that some classical pieces were composed before the pedals were invented. So, they were not meant to play with the pedals. Do classical pianists need to stick to the original or go ahead to play as one likes it?

 

[pf]

Horowitz

Hmmm....Horowitz! I don't know who he is but quoting from John Browning: "An old trick of Horowitz's is accenting with pedal; you pick your foot up off the pedal and wham it down on the top climax. You give just a hint of breath in a heavy texture, which is vital, and then you use the pedal as an accent..."

Wow...I didn't even pay attention until piano_ex gave the lead.

 

[kazuki]

hello,

i am a newbie to piano.. got a basic question here..

for normal/common sustaining of notes.. should the sustain pedal be stepped int he same instant together with the notes pressed.. or is it a slight moment after the notes are pressed?

 

[pf]

Are you playing classical or pop?

I'm taught in pop to release and step after every change in chord. For classical, cheez or piano_ex would be able to answer you better.

 

[piano_ex]

Oh, just curious...I read in the book (lazy to go and find which pianist said) that some classical pieces were composed before the pedals were invented. So, they were not meant to play with the pedals. Do classical pianists need to stick to the original or go ahead to play as one likes it?

This is a bit personal and it's always the topic of debate.
Yes, it's true that some pieces is wrote before the pedal is invented. For example, Bach's music. It's originally written for harpsichord or clavichord so, when it's being played during that era, of course there is no pedal. (But they use finger pedaling)

The question will be whether you are with the academic side, or the practical and performance side? All the academic player will tell all sort of things to tell you that, it's need to be played as the composer has intended it to do, with the instrument of that era, etc etc. (That's why we see so many baroque ensemble nowadays). But for me, if you play bach on piano, why would you imitate playing it on harpsichord? (without pedal) .... If you play on piano, oh please make use of the piano capability ... if you want to imitate harpsichord .... why don't you just use a harpsichord and play? =)

One thing that i always speculate .... what will beethoven wrote if he has OASYS or Triton Extreme? ..... hummm ...... i think He'll use it all right =) ... hahahaha

Horowitz! I don't know who he is but quoting from John Browning

Hahahaha .... Horowitz is one of the greatest pianist ever lived .... He's a legend and all classical pianist should know him .... check out his last recital after his long 12 years break.. That legendary scriabin etudes .... hmmm .... marvelous!

 

[piano_ex]

for normal/common sustaining of notes.. should the sustain pedal be stepped int he same instant together with the notes pressed.. or is it a slight moment after the notes are pressed?

if you want the other sympathetic string to vibrate = before or together with note being pressed.

if you want to change pedal (disregarding when= chord change or simple note change) and want to keep the phrase/note continued (legato).... do this

-----------(Beginning)----------(chord change)------------(chord change)
note------down----up-----------down---------up-----------down
pedal-----down------------------up-down-------------------up-down

so you lift up the pedal when you pressed the next note ......

 

[pf]

I also read somewhere that says need to use ears to discern when and where to change chords.

Does it mean so long as the sound not muddy then its ok?

 

[Cheez]

It all depends on the piece and what the composer intended (which unfortunately is also subject to personal interpretations). Interesting...thinking of when to step and release the pedal only happens when I was learning it. It's become second nature - like I don't think when to drop and lift my fingers amd when to lift and drop my wrists.

But what piano_ex said above is basically it.

 

[piano_ex]

True cheez!

you have to learn it until you can forget about it ... lolx! =P



ps: it's all about how it sounds .... =)

 

[kazuki]

if you want the other sympathetic string to vibrate = before or together with note being pressed.

if you want to change pedal (disregarding when= chord change or simple note change) and want to keep the phrase/note continued (legato).... do this

-----------(Beginning)----------(chord change)------------(chord change)
note------down----up-----------down---------up-----------down
pedal-----down------------------up-down-------------------up-down

so you lift up the pedal when you pressed the next note ......

yes legat chord changes is what i am asking bout!! thanks that helped a lot!

hmmm so the note(down) pedal(up) process is simultaneous together...

do you guys lift the whole leg up durin pedal depression? or heel down jsut ankle moving?

oh is it required to fully depress the pedal during chord changes?

sorry for so many questions, i am quite self taught, so trying to not get any bad habits XD

thanks again!!

 

[pf]

do you guys lift the whole leg up durin pedal depression? or heel down jsut ankle moving?

I think you would get a very tired leg if you lift whole leg. :mrgreen:

oh is it required to fully depress the pedal during chord changes?

Pls start reading from post #1.

 

[pf]

But then again, are there pianos made for people with big feet huh? I came across an upright one whose pedal is sooooo high that my heel can't touch the ground comfortably! Either that is one piano which is meant for people with big feet or I would need to wear high heels to play.