minor pentatonic and the 5 positions

[func]

Hi everyone, been busy trying to learn scales these few days and I came across the 5basic positions for the minor pentatonic scale...

Now what I dont get is starting from the 2nd position onwards, the first note isnt the root note of the scale anymore.. so how is it that these other 4 positions are also the "same minor pentatonic scale" in that key?

These are the 5 positions I am refering to : http://www.cyberfret.com/scales/minor-pentatonic/index.php



Also, I've seen 5positions for the major scale too.. so I'm wondering if there are such "basic box positions" for other scales like the major pentatonic, minor scales, harmonic minor etc....

Sorry if this seems like a stupid question, but its been really bugging me

I guess what im really asking is , whether there is a formula to transcribe these scales into these box shapes... and i know for example C maj scale would be C D E F G A B C but thats only 8 notes while the scales have like much more notes than that... would really appreciate if anyone can take the time to explain to me

Cheers,
func

 

[jeremyrozario]

hmmm, you don't really have to start from the start of each "box", these "boxes" are basically more options for you to solo around

instead of just playing around in 1 small confined box of about 4 frets, this allows you to play around the whole fretboard in lets following the sites example, G minor pentatonic

and also when playing, its not a must to play in 1 shape only, you can mix and match around the "boxes" and create really cool solos

 

[func]

hmm Im not too sure if I get you, Jeremy.. but what I really dont get is, how these box shapes of notes are derived and why don't they start from say the G note from the 2nd e,g onwards even tho they are all minor pentatonic scales in key of G?

Does a "standard" (as in not improvised) scale have a certain number of notes like 12 as shown in those boxes? Really blur here Hope you all bear with me lol.

 

[jeremyrozario]

hmmm...its more like the pentatonic scale has these certain notes inside it, and these boxes show you all the notes

1 octave of a pentatonic scale, root note to roote note, has 6 notes eg. G to G

E|---3---6---8---10---13---15

these notes are then "redistributed" within a "box" or shape, so basically most of the notes in the different shapes are the same

anyway, the shape or where the scale starts is not really important, as long as when soloing, when you land on your root note, or your tonal centre, in this example, is G, that will be the key of your song

 

[vernplum]

The positions are merely there as a mechanism to assist you in learning the scale up the entire neck.

Jeremy is mostly correct- you need to land on a note from the scale that sounds 'strong' harmonically (your ear will tell you how 'correct' it is...) which normally turns out to be a tone (note) from the chord being played underneath.

 

[serialninja]

well........probably one of the basic things to understand is that there are different kinds of scales.

most scales taught in classical music are septatonic-based scales. that is to say, each scale is made up of seven different notes, with the 8th note being an octave higher than the root note.

on guitar, because of the arrangement and intervals of the strings, most scales that are played (particularly blues-style scales) are pentatonic. pentatonic scales are made up of 5 different notes, with the 6th note being an octave higher than the root note.

there are major scales, harmonic minor scales, and melodic minor scales, and also major, harmonic minor, and melodic minor arpeggios.

in every key there is also a chromatic scale, where you play every semitone between the root note and its higher octave. this means you should hit every single possible note between the root and its higher octave. in a guitar context, this would mean playing every fret between your root note and an octave from it (e.g. start with open D, and play every fret up till the 12th fret D string. this is an example of a one-octave chromatic scale.)

every key is distinct because the major and minor variations of the key each have distinct key signatures, which show you which notes of the scale have accidentals. an accidental is a sharp or a flatted note. so your starting note of your fingering pattern is less relevant than the overall sum of the notes you're playing.

e.g. if you're in the key of C major: C D E F G A B C

and let's say you play a solo like this A B C D E F G A, you're still in the key of C because you have no accidentals in your notes. (cause it looks like this: C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C D E F G)

BUT if you were to play this instead:
A B C# D E F# G# A, then you'd have switched keys to A major.

 

[dhalif]

just hantam la..

 

[vernplum]

This is your 'stock' reply to any post that is theoretical.

How is the army treating you?

 

[dhalif]

yah thats why i gave up guitar.. dont know a shit bout it.. army is treating me very well... very very well...

 

[vernplum]

Eminor Progression.. Say E C D (very iron maiden-ish stuff).. what u can use.. pentatonic on E... Aeolian(minor) on E... Ionion(major) on G... Mixolydian on D... and i think phrygian somewhere around B or something.. blargh..

Don't pretend you don't know any theory lah. 8)

 

[NewGuy]

Sorry but need to borrow the thread...

What is changing of key then and how to do so?

 

[func]

e.g. if you're in the key of C major: C D E F G A B C

and let's say you play a solo like this A B C D E F G A, you're still in the key of C because you have no accidentals in your notes. (cause it looks like this: C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C D E F G)

BUT if you were to play this instead:
A B C# D E F# G# A, then you'd have switched keys to A major.

Hmm so is it right to say if i play A B C D E F , its still a C minor pentatonic scale even though its only 6 notes but it covers the basic pentatonic pattern? Or is there like a certain number of notes you have to play then its "considered" a scale... cos like chords are >3 notes together, intervals 2 notes etc??

I know these are only terms to describe them, but I always like to know what Im practising..so I guess the theory part is impt for me too instead of trying to "just hantam" :lol:

Btw,I think I'm starting to get a clearer picture after all your explanation guys! thanks alot :wink:

 

[vernplum]

Well, your example has 6 notes, so it is not strictly pentatonic. (and you mean C MAJOR (not minor).

 

[func]

I think Im confusing even myself here... yea i was refering to C major scale in the earlier post... and now I just read that A B C D E F G A is NOT C MAJ scale but the A minor scale... 8O

Uhm... so what gives...does serial ninja's explanation still hold true?

 

[Vaiyen]

to save yourself the frustration and confusion regarding theory, get yourself a private tutor!
That's what I've done.
Having someone show you how it's done on a guitar is infinitely better than reading endless seas of words.
Not disrespecting the contributions the above posters have put forth!

 

[jeremyrozario]

I think Im confusing even myself here... yea i was refering to C major scale in the earlier post... and now I just read that A B C D E F G A is NOT C MAJ scale but the A minor scale... 8O

Uhm... so what gives...does serial ninja's explanation still hold true?

for major scale, or wad i lyk to call "full scales", its different

A B C D E F G A -> A Aelolian mode,

C D E F G A B C -> C Ionian mode,

its different but the same

depending on where you start the from, the type of mode will be different

 

[DoubleBlade]

I think Im confusing even myself here... yea i was refering to C major scale in the earlier post... and now I just read that A B C D E F G A is NOT C MAJ scale but the A minor scale... 8O

Uhm... so what gives...does serial ninja's explanation still hold true?

A B C D E F G A still belongs to the C major scale.

In the circle of 5ths , C Major is the direct equalivant to A Minor with no sharps nor flats....

What serialninja is saying is that , although the first note is A , it is still NOT the root note. The root note is obviously C since it is in C major. You don't need to start on a root note when soloing.

But if you were to consider A as the root note for the above , then it is called the A minor scale....

But then again , for every major key , there's always a minor key equalivant to it. For example for C major , the equalivant minor key is A minor while in G major , the equalivant minor key is E minor and so on.

Basically if you're still confused , then I guess you just read the first 4 paragraphs....

 

[serialninja]

Hmm so is it right to say if i play A B C D E F , its still a C minor pentatonic scale even though its only 6 notes but it covers the basic pentatonic pattern? Or is there like a certain number of notes you have to play then its "considered" a scale... cos like chords are >3 notes together, intervals 2 notes etc??

I think Im confusing even myself here... yea i was refering to C major scale in the earlier post... and now I just read that A B C D E F G A is NOT C MAJ scale but the A minor scale...

Uhm... so what gives...does serial ninja's explanation still hold true

ahahahaha ok ok.

first: it's a C major scale that i was using in my example. i was using a C major SEPTATONIC scale as an example, since this is the scale that most classical music and formal music training makes use of, which is C D E F G A B C. a scale is a term, just like the word "chord" is a term. a chord has 3 or more notes played together. a scale is a series of ascending or descending notes. the type of scale is dependent on the number of notes there are from the root note to the last note of the scale before you hit the octave. if it's 5 notes, it's a pentatonic scale. if 7 notes, it's septatonic. if you hit every semitone on the way up, it's chromatic. that's all that a scale is.

if you play A B C D E F, that's just a series of notes. it's not a scale per se because it's not an ascending or descending series of notes that leads from your root note to an octave of your root note.

second: A B C D E F G A has no accidentals. this gives it 2 possible keys: A minor and C major, because neither key uses accidentals. if your root note was C, it'd be C major. if your root note is A, it'd be A minor. but the term "root note" doesn't refer to your starting note. "root note" refers to the base note of your key (C in C major, A in A minor, etc). you could start on the note D, and play D E F G A B C D and still be playing in the key of A minor or C major. as i said, your key is determined by the presence or lack of accidentals primarily. in the case of a string of notes like C D E F G A B C D E F G A, it could refer to either C major (in bold) or A minor (underlined) depending on which note you take as your root note.

 

[func]

whew... finally got it I guess... thanks for all the help to clear my doubts guys..

Pieceing all your explanations 1 by 1 I think i get the picture..finally!

Hopefully when I get to the other 5 modes they wont be as confusing now..