Know Your Roots!!

[alvinthedrummer]

Hey guys....had a chat with someone at the last meetup and I thought I should share this opinion.

I was actually really disturbed after I heard this first hand from a student drummer who's been learning from a pretty well-known local drummer. The conversation started off with what kind of style I like and what kind of advise I could give. One of my advises to this fellow drummer was to go back to the roots of your instrument and try to understand it. To me, understanding and studying the roots is really important....not just in drumming, but anything in general. One of my suggestions was for this fellow drummer to request some jazz studies from his instructor and to my HORROR....his instructor actually said to "F@#K Jazz"!!!

I think this is a really un-healthy gesture. How can any decent educator slam the roots of his or her art? Without a firm understanding of the roots, you will never progress far! When you understand the roots, you understanding how your favourite style came about and only then, you'll start looking at the musicality of that particular style and no longer just a bunch of grooves to memorise so that you can use these "memorised" grooves in a particular song. And when you understand how the particular style was developed, you'll truly understand the direction it was heading towards and only then, you could help to develop the style further in a more efficient manner.

Anyway, I hope all new drummers take this to heart and hopefully spend some time reading up on the roots of your instrument before getting too involved with the latest ideas. Spend the time and you WILL be more efficient in developing those new ideas! Good Luck!!!

 

[Perishz]

Hellooooo teacher.

yea i think i strongly agree with what alvin is talking about here. I would like to say that after jamming with different groups of people.. some can really play pretty well during jamming and all...covering songs.. etc.

however, during la-kopi sessions after jams..its during these times that i realise these guys sometimes just play directly from tabs or they really really derive where they're at from many years of jamming. Some dont know where their roots lie or they sometimes cant really be too bothered to find out.

Personally, i'm a great fan of john bonham grooves. I started out watching him on Moby Dick and he was fast and that was all i caught from the 1st time i saw him. After many many relistens of led zep's songs..i realised there was something more to bonham's grooves than jus being really fast.. that was when reading up about the stuff he did and played during his early years.. alot of Motown and shuffles.

although it all jus seemed like another autobiography of someone else..but it all now starts to make sense now.. especially after blurred's funk/blues lesson. alot that stuff suddenly came like an enlightenment....

IT WAS A WHOLE LOAD OF FUn feeling that way.

:lol:

 

[soft]

alvinthedrummer, maybe the instructor have a lesson plan for the above mentioned student? sometime, students keep wanting to learn this and that but they still have not master the basic.

actually, what is the 'roots' you are referring to?

yes, do listen to all kind of music.

 

[alvinthedrummer]

Yup...I've spoken to this "student" enough and saw him play at the exchange enough to say what I said here.. He is more than ready to study the roots of contemporary music, meaning Jazz, Blues and some simple Brazilian and Afro-Cuban grooves. These are styles where all the rock/funk styles derived from. Most of my students with average learning abilities are already learning basic swing and brazilian styles just 4 months into lessons with me. It'll be too much to explain why I think the introduction of the roots this early is crucial in this post but even if I made a wrong judgement about this particular "teacher's" lesson plan, I still think the "F@#K Jazz" attitude is all wrong and unhealthy.

Just like Perishz mentioned about Bohnam....he studied the roots!...and if you do some research...most of the legendary rock/metal drummers have spent significant time studying the roots....It is of UTMOST importance for proper development! In the truest sense, Jazz/Blues is the basics!

 

[Perishz]

Hah yea man.. alvin shld definitely be the sheperd and lead this poor sheep back on path.

Not jus drums..but everything music dates back - modern day music dates back to its roots.. blues, jazz ...even some of which such as classical and baroque periods...

 

[reuben]

its depends on wad the student really wants to learn lah... with just a basic conversation for the first time, its not deep enough to understand the situation.

learning the roots is good for your development in drumming i guess but overall, if the whole aspect of drumming always goes back to roots and it bores the student, den the whole idea is a failure.

play because you love music ...

anyway.. right now.. to me... tracing back to the roots of a particular genre, for example rock would be to go into basic groove development in the rock beat... not studying triplets and all


different ppl different opinions
PEACE

 

[alvinthedrummer]

Maybe you're right about the first conversation not being sufficient to comment on the teaching syllabus....however, the fact that he said "F@#K Jazz" is totally unprofessional!

Going back to anyone's roots as a rock drummer isn't about going back to study the basic rock beat! Do you know how the basic rock beat was developed? Do you know the importance of the triplets? If you really, truly love music...then wouldn't you want to know more about music? I never once said you have to indulge in the roots. However, you must at least learn the basics of it and trust me...it doesn't take long. If that few lessons of learning the initial styles of drumming can bore one, then I'm sad to say that he or she will hit a brick wall in his/her advancement pretty early.

But then again, it is really up to that individual how far he/she wants to go. But it is just sad to know that until today, the mindset of local musicians are still so closed-up!

 

[reuben]

the only thing i can say now is...

to each his own

 

[RudimentalDrummer]

OK I would like to say something here....in a very neutral way based on my own opinion & experiences.

I’ve Jam with some Musician….and knows quite a lot of Musician playing in many Bands. I cannot understand also many a times – The Rock/Pop even Blues Band I play with tells me - - F@xk Jazz… - -- hahaha it’s true.

The Jazz People will tell me “ Jazz is the Ultimate at the end of the day” ….

So I got confused as I am new initially (I am only talking about the people I know – not anyone in Soft here) …… later I came to know – The Professional Musicians will play & love any kind of Music…Music is Music be it Rock, Funk, Blues Samba, Jazz, Latin whatever…….it’s important that we know and learn understand also to be able to do the simple basics of these Genere………………you mix them all up – it’s becomes what is call now as - - FUSION (that’s where it came)……– I guess.

It’s all about one’s attitude towards Music as a whole at end of day ……of course I understand that most band & it’s members stick to playing only a few Genere of Music where they are comfortable, expert with or love most (that’s natural) ….but one should also not dispise other Genere of Music….eg In Rock double-Bass Drum is tough so is Latina stuff, so is the improvision of Jazz….all are never easy.

This been said – I feel that, for any Music Instructor or Drum Instructor – It is good to desemination of all these Basic forms of playing to his/her students if possible as it is important, if not also ok (bonus here only) – but encouragement is what Instructor should give it’s students - and definitely not saying things like “ F@xk Jazz” as a Musician as a Professional, or as an Instructor…cause we’ll be missing the most important teaching to students – Having the Right Mature Attitude towards Music At End Of The Day as the student progress.

 

[reuben]

yeap agreed... maybe F**k jazz is a little off... but depending on wad context it is taken from... den its actually ok...

 

[blurred]

well okie i reckon if ur a hobby drummer, and u wanna f**k jazz and not chicks i say fine.
however if ur gonna be a pro drummer or a teacher u have to know where all the styles come from. esp a teacher i feel cause you wldn't know how the styles link up and how the interconnect.
like for example the link between motown and wat modern r n b is. or how impt mike clarke or james brown is to the funk world.

hobby drummer its okie to f**k anything u want

but teachers have the responsibility to teach not only the right materials but they have to also open the minds of their students. i feel tht ostrasizing any genre be it jazz or metal or pop isn't right.

 

[RudimentalDrummer]

Hey all you my Bros...that's why har I figure I must learn all forms of Drumming eg Rock (Fast Double Bass Drum), Funk (play like Blackwell - throw sticks here & there), Alfo-Cuban (all 2 legs 2 hands moving here n there like bery complicated like that), Jazz (learn to Solo 32 Bar like nobody business like that) & Swing all the way, then...........finally combine all these do a FUSION Style...make people eye open BIG BIG like that...wah-seh.....steady lah hor....

So after that - 1st thing I ask a Drummer "You play what har"...he say"Rock"...I will show & play "Jazz, Fusion, Alfro-Cuban" like that lah - then he say "Wah u bery good har"......and when he say "I play Jazz" I show him my "Fast Double Bass Drum like Portnoy like that"...then he also will say "Wah ...u bery bery good hor".....Then when they say "Can you do this? eg Rock or Jazz"...I say "Of course I can lar"...Kekekekeke.......and whether I play Rock or Jazz better than him/her or not nebermind...at least ... he will think I am pretty good drummer - because I can play different forms of drumming mah...correct Bros...

Cheers !

 

[caijunlong]

RD, what you've said is very true. That's why I need you to teach me swing! haha

 

[killerbee]

yeap agreed... maybe F**k jazz is a little off... but depending on wad context it is taken from... den its actually ok...

LOL. Where f**K can sometimes be mistaken as love? Tough love indeed. Tough love!

But I agree with what RD and blurred said. To me, if you are just a hobby drummer, you probably can choose to learn whatever genre you like and "tough love" the rest that you don't like. Because in reality, it would take one really long to be really good at something and maybe you don't have time to branch out into so many things. So yeah, when I can't even get my swing right, there's no way I can devote extra time to learn how to sound like a machine gun with the double pedals. Correct or not?

But am I going to f##k that? Cannot lah. I personally love rock 'n' roll drumming that's jazz influenced. But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate people like Mike Portnoy or even Jason Bittner. I even went for the Slayer concert just to check out Dave Lombardo. (It was kinda scary being a girl in a sea of dudes dressed in black but *ahem* I'm sure they are nice people) Awesome speed and dexterity! If given a chance to learn to play like them, I would really. Would I be able to use it in the kind of music I like to play? Probably not so. But knowledge is power. Always good to know something else. This is just my personal attitude towards music appreciation though.

But on the other hand, if you are a teacher, I don't think it's positive to pass on such extreme opinions towards any genres at all. One may not like jazz, but one can't deny the impact that jazz has on modern music. Must respect mah.

All in all, there are so many factors that make a person a good musician. To be good teacher, even harder as you are passing your skills and may I dare say, philosophy on to the next generation. I always stand by this: A good teacher not only teaches, he/she also inspires as well. Trust your instinct for this instance. Does saying "f##k jazz" sound right to you at all? A bit "errrrrr...." right?

 

[soft]

there are 2 points in this discussion.

#1 music history

#2 educator's behaviour


i think we all agree that knowing music history is like knowing music theory. good to have.

#2 will affect a student's attitude towards learning and life in general. hopefully, educators will take note of their action and groom better musicians for future Singapore.

* as for the word "fxxx", it is so used that some people treat it like a fullstop or greetings. it is not good.

 

[RudimentalDrummer]

caijunlong....yes I can share the Basics of Swing and the Basic Comping with you anytime my Bro, I love Jazz Swing, Funk, Alfro Cuban, Rock Beat & Rythmn Patterns.....but I love to play the simplest forms of Music.....that is

DISCO/POP...this is my most favourite...songs..dont play play har - like Pussycat Dolls, Christina Anguilera, Britney Spear this type of songs that are Dance Music..cause I love to dance (and am a very good dancer also - really I never lie here)...you see my cutting u know liao........The main reason why I love this kind of Music is because - I can get a lot of hot-chicks if I'm playing in a Venue with these kind of songs - where people more wild mah......If I play Jazz (More Cultured-Music)..the people there are different also mah - the cha-bo will not come to me and hug me, or kiss kiss me one(they bery serious one)...I know because my Drummer friend plaing in a club got alot of chicks...but he is really very good looking (not a very fantastic drummer) just can keep a groove and play Disco Songs that's all...enough liao - like that already can get a lot of chicks....Kekekekekeke :lol: I just being frank here - I hope no offence to anyone here...

and...Don't Bash Rudi

 

[caijunlong]

Haha, thanks bro. Some day must really see you dance man!

 

[mel80]

I agree with what blurred said. All the history stuff on music may not interest everyone. Personally, I'm not exactly keen in reading all about the history and the works. But even then, one should not bash other genres of music, especially the roots. Besides, knowing a little about the roots is always a good thing.

There is a difference between a hobbyist who ostracizes other genres, from an educator who does the same. The educator is suppose to impart the right knowledge and mindset to the students. Not teach his/her students how to ostracize other genres of music.

Moreover, music has become very cross genre over the years. There are even death metal bands that have some jazz influences in their playing. Take for example, Cynic:
http://www.myspace.com/cynicreunion

Check out the drummer in the videos.

So we can't say this genre is f***ed up or diss some other genres. Genres only serve as a general guide for people (mainly Music Labels) to categorize the music in order to sell it to the masses. At the end of the day, it's all music.

Just my thoughts on this

 

[smildrumez]

i agree mel!!

 

[alvinthedrummer]

Look guys, I just want to say something. I'm not doing this to gain another student. In fact, many people know that my schedule is already full and I have a waiting list.

The biggest reason why I wrote this is because I feel a strong need to educate the public that limiting yourselves to one genre and not visiting the roots will not get you far. This, I speak from my prior personal experience in music. Also, from many others who were more experienced than me, who were generous enough to share this valuable insight with me. Finally, I discovered this as a major obstacle in a person's musical journey from those who had problems progressing. However, to each his or her own, it really is up to you what music is about to you. Only thing is, for many who want to grow to be an all-rounder or have a much deeper understanding of music, as educators and musicians sharing insights with others, we have a responsibility to let people know what are the options they have.

I'm sorry if anyone's offended by this post but anyone that knows me, knows I'm a very frank person.