is it alright? M I normal pianist

[pianomankris]

Good to hear you are progressing

(PS I was kidding about the refund!)

Some books that may be useful for you - 'Sight reading - the rhythm book' (mel bay publications)

and 'Flip-a-rhythm' (boosey and hawkes).




What also works is tapping a metronome beat gently in one hand whilst tapping the rhythm of the piece louder in the other hand.


Here is a very good starter for you - try tapping one hand soft, and the other hand hard. At the same time, I mean


What makes reading music difficult is that you are reading both rhythm and pitch at the same time. If one of them is pretty good, it will become far easier.

 

[[vogue]angel]

can. i heard some plp play worse than me and still pass. It's like school exam. Just practice, practice and practice.( i'm not sure tone-deaf can pass or not)

I agree with you pianomarkis. Got to read left and right hand. U look at other instruments like violin. So best. Only read 1 line then enuf.

 

[pianomankris]

Ah - but [vogue]angel - try not to compare yourself to others - there will always be people better than you, and there will always be people worse.

You shouldn't derive your worth as a musician by looking at other musicians.

If this was the case, there would only be one super-pianist on the planet, as no-one else would be good enough.

You should only try to live up to your own expectations, rather than to what you think others expect of you.

 

[lester_music]

counting is so important...

if u play alone, it is ok...but if u will to play with a band.......counting is important....

cause sometimes we need to tell you to come in on the 2nd beat..or end on the end of the "e" of the 1/16...

Unless u really know the feel without counting....where and when to hit the note

Even most professional people I play with depends a lot on counting...it is the basic....a second nature to musician.

the problem is many don't wanna count when they they start learning music....so this habit is cultivated from there and years later still don't count........

Infact if you keep doing it...it will become so natural and auto that u don't even know that u r counting the beat...

 

[lester_music]

so start counting now before grow old...it will even be harder...

usually when u just start doing it ..it will be tough(which means it is also good, cause u r learning new thing not in your head yet)

but just keep counting and playing together and one day it will become a habit for you or should i say.....second nature..

 

[MarkDrumsYou]

to vogueangel, honestly i have no idea how you passed your ABRSM Grade 8 since you say u cant count-(means playing out of time) and having poor sight reading skills. Personally, if sight reading skills are only mediocre, you may still do well in the exams if you excel in the pieces, basic techniques and aural tests. however, if you cant "count the beat" i dunno how you even play any of the pieces in the exam properly. As far as i know, in a Grade 8 exam, doing the bare minimal (ie. keeping in time, playing the right notes) would only allow you to barely pass( but you cant even fulfill that), so i dunno how u passed.

In response to others who use the phrase "feel the music", "play by feel" etc. PLS. PLAYING BY FEEL DOES NOT EQUATE TO PLAYING OUT OF TIME. IT IS NOT AN EXCUSE TO SLACK OFF AND NOT KEEP THE METRONOME SPEED SET BY THE COMPOSER (Unless there are terms in certain points in the song which instructs to slow down or speed up etc). Playing by feel should mean pointers such as increased involvement of dynamics in the piece.

Also, a classical piano teacher who don't even use a metronome at all is a fraud. They shouldn't be educators of music but instead should get an education themselves.

 

[Cheez]

That's strong remarks! I wouldn't go to the extent to say teachers who don't condone metronomes are "frauds". Beethoven, Berlioz, Brahms, Verdi and Wagner at certain times had all indicated that they do not approve of the metronome because of its mechanical interpretation of time. Beethoven seemed to like the metronome but later appeared to switch his views. When Liszt asked Beethoven about the metronome, he answered, "Better none" (source: Letter to Breitkopf and Hartel, Nov. 16, 1863).

I do agree that in vogueangel's case, a metronome will be useful. But let's not go into either extremes...

As to "playing by feel", I agree it's not the same as playing out of time, and certainly is not an excuse for not taking timing into consideration. I feel the metronome is useful for a student learning strict timing and has problem counting - ie in vogueangel's case. But a metronome hardly applies after that. Try Debussy pieces with a metronome - impossible. I would be playing like a robot. Many composers may not put "ad lib" into the timing, but many classical pieces require fluid interpretation of timing.

In other forms of music that are more contemporary, strict timing becomes essential. But in classical, things are different.

 

[MarkDrumsYou]

haha of course i'm not asking anyone to bring a metronome into the exam hall and play along=) Wat i meant is that when you learn a new song, and u break down the piece into probably ie. bars or phrases whatsoever to your personal perference during practice and put the metronome to the timing of that particular bar and practice, and for another different bar, a diff timing or speed and then practice. All these during practice yea.

Especially in this case whereby the threadstarter is obviously unable to grasp basic timing, metronome's the way to go.

ok, maybe i have generalised. i shouldnt say all classical piano teachers who don't advocate the use of metronomes are frauds. let me correct it: Teachers who aren't teaching students who can keep time and/or have as great sense of timing as Liszt or Beethoven, and not advocate the use of metronomes- are frauds =)

 

[[vogue]angel]

thanks for the feedback, I appreciate the views and comments. Mark, it's a miracle that i pass ( it's like Greece winning the European Championship). Anyway, i think this thread should be closedlar. Coz i basicly have all the ideas i need to work. ( or should it stay open, up to the moderatorslar)

Cheez, the part where u say bout the composers not using metronome really surprise me. You even quote...............

Man, this forum scarylar...........

 

[lester_music]

Forum is like that la...too scary.......

being open mind....we share things ...agree or disagree...we will learn something...

But i think Markdrumsyou have a point.....cause many musician use the "play by feel" as an excuse and even the word " subjective"..

Well....I believe before all these words come into use...there must certain standard involved....

Just like cooking..you cannot add all the salt and pepper and say "by feel" or "subjective".....there has to be certain limit or standard first...

 

[pf]

Haha....quite nice of cheez to quote. To show the credibility of the information source and not all hearsay from dont know who. Whats so scary about that?

Glad that this discussion helps,vogueangel.

 

[pianomankris]

But a metronome hardly applies after that. Try Debussy pieces with a metronome - impossible. I would be playing like a robot.

Are you sure?

L'isle Joyeuse is almost impossible to execute correctly without metronomic precision (apart from the usual rallentandos at section changes).

As with many of his preludes:

Ce qu'a vu le vent d'Ouest
Les collines d'Anacapri
Le Vent dans la plaine

And, of course, the most rhythmically abused piece of them all, La Cathedral Engloutie.


At most, we could say that certain pieces by Debussy are more convincing when a sense of metronomic freedom is included in the interpretation of the pieces.

Many composers may not put "ad lib" into the timing, but many classical pieces require fluid interpretation of timing.

In other forms of music that are more contemporary, strict timing becomes essential. But in classical, things are different.

Once again, are you sure?!!

I quote Mozart himself (in discussing a pupil):


...she will never require the most essential, the most difficult and the chief requisite in music, which is time, because from her earliest years she has done her utmost not to play in time.

Herr Stein and I discussed this point for two hours at least and I have almost converted him, for he now asks my advice on everything. He used to be quite crazy about Beecke; but now he sees and hears that I am the better player, that I do not make grimaces, and yet play with such expression, that, as he himself confesses, no one up to the present has been able to get such good results out of his pianofortes.

Everyone is amazed that I can always keep strict time. What these people cannot grasp is that in Tempo Rubato in an Adagio, the left hand should go on playing in strict time. With them the left hand always follows suit. Count Wolfegg, and several other passionate admirers of Beecke, publicly admitted at a concert the other day that I had wiped the floor with him.

(letters of Mozart, pp 339-340)

When Liszt asked Beethoven about the metronome, he answered, "Better none" (source: Letter to Breitkopf and Hartel, Nov. 16, 1863). .

It stil remains inconclusive as to whether Liszt ever actually met Beethoven. I would be personally interested to find out the exact source of this, as I own some letters of Liszt. Could I have an exact reference to this quote?



But let's not tell people that classical music requires freedom from a metronomic sense of time, when it is simply not the case.

 

[pianomankris]

Cheez - i'm sorry to say, but I don't know where you get your quote from RE Liszt/Beethoven.


I phoned my friend today who works at Breitkopf and Hartel, and no such letter exists, or has ever existed.

Furthermore, in the year 1863, Liszt was finishing off his piano transcriptions of the Beethoven symphonies 5 - 7, and only had contact through mail with Olga Von Meyendoorf, and other friends/family members (contact Dumbarton Oaks for details) . There are no records of him having contact with any music publishers in the latter half of 1863.


In November of 1863 Liszt was in residence at the monastery of the Madonna Del Rosario, performing his duties as 'L'Abbe Liszt' (meeting the Pope, amongst other things).



I'm still curious where you got your information from. As an active member of the Liszt Society, I take great interest in all things Liszt-related; if the information is false, we contact the relevant sources and politely ask them to alter said information.


However - back to the issue at hand - a metronome is very necessary - more than necessary, irrespective of style of music.



(Regarding Debussy - I have letters of Debussy addressed to his pupils regarding the use of the metronome. I could post the info here if you wish.)

I actually have direct quotes from most, if not all composers, regarding the use of the metronome as a necessary practise tool.

 

[Cheez]

Hi pianomankris, thanks for that. All very interesting. Always enjoy an opposing view. Personally, I've not problems with the metronome. Yeah, I realised I'm threading on thin ice when I mentioned Liszt and Beethoven since whether they ever met is an issue of contention.

Anyhow, since you're probably the expert, I will concur to your view on the quotes. I'll pm you the direct source so you can contact the sources and hopefully correct them, if they are wrong.

 

[pianomankris]

Thanks, Cheez.

There is only one mention of Liszt ever having allegedly met Beethoven - it is with regards to Liszt's final concert in Vienna in 1823, when Liszt was 12.

Cross-referencing with Beethoven's diaries has shown that Beethoven was not present at this concert.

In this year Beethoven was 53, and as such, was profoundly deaf. He almost never attended concerts, and was, to put it bluntly, a moody old man!!

However, Liszt (and his father) used the rumour to further his own early career. This is where some of the confusion comes from.






But it should be noted that Liszt was taught for a while by Czerny, a former pupil of Beethoven (and one who many pianists here will be familiar with his numerous studies!).


As a side-issue - Liszt was taught composition by Antonio Salieri - tutor of Schubert, Moscheles, and Beethoven (and also Mozart's contemporary - unfairly presented as 'evil' in the movie 'Amadeus').

 

[bluelite]

Its funny how things turned out in this thread..In fact it turned out to become a history lesson...

And i cant believe that u actually called some guy from some organisation to verify the facts...Gosh!! These pple have been long gone~ Although their music lives on..but why pull them down into the water..haha..

 

[pianomankris]

Its funny how things turned out in this thread..In fact it turned out to become a history lesson...

And why is this a bad thing?

These pple have been long gone~ Although their music lives on..but why pull them down into the water..haha..

Misinformed, misinterpreted performances 'pull them down into the water' - hence it is such an important issue.




The issue is very important - i'm not aware of any instance at all where any classical composer/performer has discouraged use of the metronome.

So yes, it is very important, as this was part of the very essence of the thread.



It would be wrong to let people think that not using the metronome is a positive value, and one that has been encouraged by some of the greatest composers, when this is simply not the case.

 

[bluelite]

Nothing bad..I didnt mention anything saying its bad or anything..

Well then..u've made ur point..congrats...

*Applause* *Confetti flying*

 

[pianomankris]

Nothing bad..I didnt mention anything saying its bad or anything..

Well then..u've made ur point..congrats...

*Applause* *Confetti flying*

Thanks for the sarcasm.

The truth usually does sound bland. This doesn't, however, mean that it is lacking in truth.

Perhaps you should take note and learn something from this thread.

I'm not trying to make any point apart from trying to help others.

 

[[vogue]angel]

my goodness. The thread that i started becomes a flame zone liao. The thread is to benefit peoplelar, not to flamelar........... kinda regret starting this thread