is it alright? M I normal pianist

[[vogue]angel]

need some help here. I'm a pianist but i 1 2 improve myself in my sight-reading. but the prob is, everytime i look at the score, i know the notes, but it takes sometimes b4 i can play it out, it's like i get stuck there

another prob i'm facing is, when i play piano, i dunno how to count the beat. This is hindering me from learning new songs and progress. I finish my grade 8 and i cannot count and play at the same time. Anyone can help me in this?

 

[pf]

Huh? Then how do you pass the sight reading section of the ABRSM exams?

Learning to count is best done playing with a metronome/drum machine.

 

[Cheez]

I"m surprised that you passed your Grade 8, esp the aural exams. But no matter - most important is that you now realise your deficiency and wants to do something about it.

What music you are trying to play now? If it is classical, you have to move backwards a few grades to easier pieces and get your counting right. Counting while playing is really the basic stage at the earlier grades. My son does that to get the timing right in his head and so he doesn't miss a beat. But once you progress, the timing and counting is a feel - you don't need to consciously count. So, if that doesn't happen automatically for you, you need to go to basic - earlier grades, even earlier than grade 5. If you haven't touch the piano for a while, you may want to start with Grade 3.

Same thing for sight-reading. It comes with practice. So suggestion is to sight-read something of earlier grades.

Piano_ex may have some suggestions.

 

[pf]

Opps...hehe....drum machine is for me. Not classical pianist.

 

[KeDraiv]

lol, for me i don't count at all lah, too lazy.

imo,since u're grade 8 already, u should have a better understanding of classical music?
so u should roughly know the speed/tempo of the song rite?
then u can jus play based on the temopo u think it is?

for sight reading, i would juz play everything slow, so the lag time btw me figuring out the notes and me playing the notes won't seem that obvious. anyway frm wat i noe the examiners don't look at how fast u play but how fluently u play so it doesn't matter if u play it fast or slow.=]=]

 

[kdash]

do practice with a metronome, and keep to the beat. it helps a lot with your sense of beat and tempo. once the beat is engrained in you, you can tell when the tempo is too fast or slow, or when you are slowly speeding up or slowing down in your play. having the beat in your head is important.

 

[[vogue]angel]

thanks cheez. i know my own weakness n i'm trying to improve on it. well, I have good hearing, so i always "bluff" my way out of problems. Bout aural, i did manage to pass coz i noe if it's too fast or too slow. But with good hearing, you can't always get through it, so i'm trying 2 improve tis both aspects so i can improve more as a pianist and learn new songs WITHOUT listening to how it is being playes.

this is 1 of the causes i take a long time to learn new songs.

bout metronome, my piano teacher din use a metronome on me before. She don't believe in using it, so i didn't use it when i was young.

But once you progress, the timing and counting is a feel - you don't need to consciously count. - i dun get this, can explain more?

 

[pf]

Errrhhh....no metronome? A classical piano teacher who doesn't believe in metronome? I can't believe that. I thought most music teachers would insist the metronome upon the student to engrained the beat in them as kdash had said.

It is afterall classical music (everything needs to be played by the score), not improvisation that can be done thru free flow feel and expression. You can do different musical phrases at different tempo for improvisation like pop songs, done with expression and all when you play alone.

I think what Cheez meant in "timing and counting is feel" for classical means that once deeply engrained, the counting is subconcious. Its a at the back of your mind thing.

 

[kdash]

i'm surprised to hear of piano teachers who do not advocate the use of metronomes. it's really very important to have the "engrained beat" in you. no use being able to play impressive stuff but not able to keep to the beat of the rest of the band. even if you are playing alone, it can be disruptive to the listeners.

 

[Cheez]

Honestly, I find the metronome not as useful - to me. Used it once at my piano's teacher's suggestion at about grade 3-4. Changed piano teacher after grade 5. And never touched the metronome ever again. I thought the metronome didn't help me one bit. At grade 3, it just confused me instead.

I can see why some piano teachers would not advocate it. I for one find it quite useless. However, in your case vogueangel, I would suggest using the metronome to help you out at this stage. The problem with the metronome is dependency. You need to built a "metronome" in your head eventually. Otherwise, no metronome = timing out all over again.

As for feeling the timing, it's similar to having the metronome inside your head. Eventually, you shouldn't need to consciously count 1-2-3-4 or 1-2-3, 2-2-3 etc.

By the way, aural is more than just listening. It also tests your sense of rhythm and timing. Hence why I was surprised you could get through the aural exam. You need to know how to count to get it right. But as I said, it's OK. Still not too late now to get it right now. At least you are willing to do something about it.

 

[pf]

At first when I started using the metronome/drum machine, I can't keep to the beat either. Always lost after 2 bars...

But after persistent usuage for practice, I get used it. Helps me to partition the bars. Then after that, I can play to the beat without.

At one point, when I'm practicing some off beat stuff, I actually use BOTH the drum machine and the metronome at the same time. Helps me to identify the down beats and partition bars amidst the drum beats (which might not always be the down beat), drum rolls, clashing of cymbals, hi hats, etc. But that's for me, learning to play with other people in a band.

 

[kdash]

just to clarify, a metronome is useful when you find that you have trouble keeping to the beat. but if there is overdependence on it then it defeats the purpose. conclusion is to internalise the beat, that way there is no reliance on the metronome. thanks for adding that cheez!

as pf said, metronome is a good tool to use for practising offbeats and syncopated beats etc.

 

[senn_liu]

"everytime i look at the score, i know the notes, but it takes sometimes b4 i can play it out"

"when i play piano, i dunno how to count the beat"

"I finish my grade 8 and i cannot count and play at the same time"


somehow these statements just don't add up.

 

[[vogue]angel]

you see. i play by hearing all this while. so it sums up all the 3 things. when i learn a song, my piano teacher plays the songs. i memories the beat and the tune. hence, don't need to count and can just roughly play it out.
this is kind of a weakness of pianist like me tat rely too much on hearing and not counting and sight-reading

but now, trying not to use so much of hearinglar.
Thanks for the tips cheez, pf and kdash. It's very helpful and constructive. so many things to learn as a musician...........

 

[pf]

Actually, if you can play out what you hear and memorised, you should have already been counting subconsiously.

Not counting is really play haphazardly. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow. And also like sustain for 3 beats in a 4/4 full bar sustain. Cannot maintain a steady tempo.

 

[pikachu86]

i also have the same problem as TS, that is i hate to sight-read and count aloud. perhaps that's why i ventured into theory...

but back to topic: to counter my weakness i memorise the notes (for exam pieces, at least. i fail my sight reading all the time during aural) and *no choice* use the metronome to practice the pieces at the prescribed speed (they do indicate at the start of the piece) and with supervision of my music teacher. Until she gives her approval i stop the metronome and steady tempo comes along naturally.

i may be outdated because i only stopped at grade 7(didn't take the exam) but all along i've been able to *smoke through* my past exams so i figured the above methods work for me =X

 

[kdash]

[vogue]angel: it's not a bad thing to be able to play by ear, but it would be great if you can back that up with sight-reading etc. so that you don't have to totally rely on your ear. imagine someone passes you a music score, asking you to play it. it would be very helpful if you can look at the score and have the tune immediately in your head. just an example

pikachu86: waa your smoking very powerful! haha but as cheez said, it's never too late to realise what you need to improve in.

 

[pianomankris]

bout metronome, my piano teacher din use a metronome on me before. She don't believe in using it, so i didn't use it when i was young.

What?!!!

Go demand a refund!!


Psychologically, a metronome is necessary.

When something is difficult, you will slow down (and not realise it) as the brain is overloaded with multiple levels of information processing. As such, the physical realisation of the mental processes takes longer.

When something is very easy, the opposite can (and usually does) happen.

 

[[vogue]angel]

It's been sometime since i posted ( 2 busylar).thanks Pf. mayb subconsiously i'm counting. You mean if a person can hold to a beat means he's counting?

pianomarkis, i can't demand a refund. She teach me using some french method to help me countlar.

anyway, i'm now practicing sight-reading n counting. N i got myself some free sample from ABRSM, the jazz sampler. It's kinda cool.

anyone heard of it?

 

[chrisiscoolerthanyou]

dude, i dont know how you got to grade 8..
maybe can la.. just blindly pia the exam pieces..
anyway, about timing and sight reading,
you need PRACTISE, PRACTISE AND MORE PRACTISE.

sight reading just keep playing new pieces..
if you cant read too difficult pieces then start from simple ones first.
as for timing, practise with a metronome.