Intervals, intervals, intervals

[futures]

Hi all, i'm new to the forum, so i thought i'd just contribute my 2 cents worth on this topic of Intervals, also to clear up some misconceptions that i've come across.

Do correct me if i'm misinformed on anything.

Now, any beginning guitarist is often directed to the topic of Intervals, and the understanding of them and their function is no doubt essential. But, what are intervals?

Intervals are essentially the distance between two notes. An easier way to visualise them would be basically, the distance between the notes on the frets. A more familiar term that many would encounter would be that of the whole step and half step. The whole steps and half steps are intervals yes, to be more musically correct, they are the intervals of the Major 2nd and Minor 2nd.

There are altogether 12 intervals.
The intervals are the same between all notes, i'm using C here as the root as an example.

1. Minor 2nd (1 Half Step: e.g C to C#)
2. Major 2nd (2 Half Steps: e.g C to D)
3. Minor Third (3 Half Steps: e.g C to D#)
4. Major Third (4 Half Steps: e.g C to E)
5. Perfect Fourth (5 Half Steps: e.g C to F)
6. Diminished Fifth; also known as the Tritone or Flat fifth or Sharp fourth (6 Half Steps: e.g. C to F#)
7. Perfect Fifth (7 Half Steps: e.g C to G)
8. Minor Sixth (8 Half Steps: e.g C to G#)
9. Major Sixth (9 Half Steps: e.g C to A)
10. Minor Seventh (10 Half Steps: e.g C to A#)
11. Major Seventh (11 Half Step: e.g C to B)
12. Perfect Octave (12 Half Steps: e.g C to C in the next octave)

It is important to take note that while an interval can be mapped out by judging the distance between 2 notes by the frets that are in between, that is not the only way to locate an interval. If for example you are playing C E, that is a major third anywhere on the fretboard, as long as you're playing C E within the same octave. The notes do not have to be on the same string.

So why learn about intervals? We often hear people speaking of how note choice helps to bring out the mood of the song. This is wrong. It is not the choice of notes, but rather the choice of intervals.

Additionally, when people play songs by ear, what they are listening out for are not the notes themselves, but the intervals. It is impossible to say, oh that's an A note, oh that's an F# unless the person has perfect pitch. But your ear can recognise, after sufficient training, the intervals that create the melodies, in turn allowing you to play what you hear.

Case in point:
Did you realise that every major key and its relative minor essentially contain the same notes?

For example: C Major: C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
A Minor: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A

When improvising in the key of A minor, you might find that your improvisation sounds too happy to be minor, so how can this be!

It is exactly by either emphasising either the major intervals or minor intervals (generally speaking) that you achieve either a major or minor tonality from the same set of notes, putting you in either C major or A minor.

*do not that this refers only to the diatonic keys. This problem is avoided easily if you're playing within the pentatonic keys, which omit the notes which de-emphasise either minor or major tonality.

Each interval has its own quality, and it would benefit you greatly to invest some time to listen to each interval and how they interact with each other. For example, if you take a look at the modes, it is the emphasis of the sharp 4th in Lydian that makes it sound Lydian, and the emphasis of the Flatted Seventh in Myxolydian that makes it sound Myxolydian, and so on.

I hope this has benefited you in one way or another. Cheers.

 

[Cheez]

There are slight errors to your naming of intervals.

C to D is major 2nd. Minor 2nd is C to Db (not C#, although they are the same note, or enharmonic). An Augmented 2nd is C to D# (note that Eb is the same note as D# - but C to Eb is minor 3rd).

C to F# is an augmented 4th, while C to Gb is a diminished 5th.

In short - a semitone down from a major interval gives you a minor interval. a semitone down from a minor interval gives you a dimished interval. A semitone up from a major interval gives you an augmented interval. A semitone down from a perfect interval gives you a diminished interval. Semitone up from perfect gives augmented.

And you need to take all these in relation to the actual key.

A tritone is an augmented 4th, not diminished 5th (although again, they are actually the same notes, or enharmonic).

 

[futures]

Yes, i know the notes are enharmonic. But assuming we are counting upwards, from C, it would be C# wouldn't it? If we are counting down from D then it would undoubtedly be Db like you mentioned.

I'm visualizing everything in context now. And i did say that C to D is a major 2nd, did i miss that out somewhere? Hmm.

 

[Cheez]

No. It's the naming. C to D is a second. Hence C to D natural is major 2nd and C to Db is minor 2nd. C to C is not a second. A second ALWAYS involves a change in the letter-name, not necessary the acccidental. That's how it works... One of those things...

 

[Jerseystar]

Both of you are correct depending on where you learnt. At the end of the days it really doesn't matter on the theory if you call it a C# or Dflat. I understand where Cheez is coming from but I don't think anyone needs to be so rigid. You are right only so far as western music goes but when you have scales that don't really conform to western music theory and has eight notes per octave rather than only seven, such as spanish, bebop scales etc. then it really doesn't matter. Even then just looking through the real book will reveal so many composer take liberties by not using proper nomenclature so they use C# when it should be a D flat.

 

[bluepowder]

good discussion going here...however...i do feel the need to intrude and introduce a few more intervals....11ths 13ths etc....although one could argue they are just an octave above the intervals mentioned...its important to note the difference...especially depending on the voicing...

 

[Cheez]

Using C# or Db in a melodic line doesn't really matter much. However in an interval, or even in a chord, it makes quite a bit of difference, despite sounding the same. Same with say, a diminished 5th or augmented 4th. One is lowering the 5th note, the other is raising the 4th note. Sounds the same, but inherently very different. It's more than just nomenclature. Doesn't work only on Western music. It's even more important in jazz and modal scales.

Let's try a scale - say a C myxolydian scale: C,D,E,F,G,A,Bb. In a chord of this scale (which is based on thirds), we have C, E, G, Bb (and if we continue), D, F (F now being the 11th note).

Let's look at scales first.

If we raise the F (augmenting it to F# - ie a #11), we have a scale of C, D, E, F#, G, A, Bb.

Let's do it the other way. Let's lower the 5th (diminish to Gb, or b5). We end up with C, D, E, F, Gb, A, Bb - a totally different scale.

Same thing if applied to chords. A C7#11 chord (augmented 4th included) gives you C, E, G, Bb, F# (notice the G natural). However, a C7b5 chord (diminished 5th included) gives you C, E, Gb, Bb. You'll see they are actually 2 different chords and sounds entirely different!

So...it's more than just a theoretical exercise. It actually make quite a bit of difference in playing and how things sound.

 

[futures]

good discussion going here...however...i do feel the need to intrude and introduce a few more intervals....11ths 13ths etc....although one could argue they are just an octave above the intervals mentioned...its important to note the difference...especially depending on the voicing...

Yes, that would be compound intervals you're referring to. What you're saying is valid for all compound intervals except the thirteenth, which is more than just a sixth in the next octave. The sixth usually implies major, but the thirteenth often implies the presence of a dominant seventh, so big difference there.

Anyway i think the confusion about diminished sevenths often arises only in relation to chord formation. For example remembering the differences between a Dim7 chord and a Min7b5 chord. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Thor Murugan]

Interesting discussion...I totally agree with whatever Cheez had said. Where theory is concerned, I personally believe that one ought to be "rigid", if following grammar is being rigid (I consider music a language and theory as being the grammar encompassing it). Just like how English grammar is not possible to change, likewise, certain theoretical 'rules' should not be overlooked/neglected. These are what create the sound and bring out the feelings/mood one desires to induce in the listener.

And as Cheez said, music theory applies (to a significant extent) to music of different cultures and not just limited to western music. In fact, upon comparing the underlying theories in certain cultural music and western music, there would be more or less similar rules and concepts. I always emphasize to my friends and students that without a proper theory backing, one can't go far in music where improvisation and songwriting are concerned.

Oh and thanks to futures for the thread! It's a good refresher for me, and anyone who had not looked back on theory stuff for some time...

 

[bluepowder]

the thing wiht music theory is...its a tool...thats it...semantics can be argued to death...but it will not do much good....as long the concept is understood and put well into use...there is no harm in having different views

 

[Cheez]

Sometimes, it may be semantics. In those situations, I would suggest flexibility and not to worry too much about names. However, in certain times, it's more than that. It's actually mean very different things. Put the above example in a real band situation - imagine if one guitar player thinks diminished 5th and the keyboardist thinks augmented 4th - you get 2 players playing riffs in totally different scales causing confusion and chaos. Naming things the right way is sometimes not that important, but in other times is crucial. This particular example is one of them.

 

[ThisIsTheEnd]

Where is a good place for a beginner to start learning theory?

 

[pianomankris]

A very basic element of dealing with intervals is being omitted here:

harmonic and melodic intervals.

harmonic interval - the distance between two notes played simultaneously.

melodic interval - the distance between two notes played in succession.




And Cheez is correct - C - C# would be called an augmented unison, not a minor 2nd.

And no it isn't just semantics - a specific method of naming notes exists in order for others to understand the intention of the composer (in compositional terms, a minor 2nd is vastly different from an augmented unison, regardless of whether or not they sound the same to the ear. 'Hi' sounds the same as 'high', but it doesn't mean the meaning of the words are the same).

I'd go further than Cheez though and say that semantics is important in every occasion. If anything is disregared in music, it's something that will have to be learned later anyway. Best to learn the proper way. It exists for a reason.

 

[pianomankris]

So why learn about intervals? We often hear people speaking of how note choice helps to bring out the mood of the song. This is wrong. It is not the choice of notes, but rather the choice of intervals.

I disagree. If you hear a piece, then hear the same piece transposed, it can sound very different. And all the 'intervals' will be the same. To exaggerate this, if you played a piece in the extreme bass register, then in the extreme high register, they would sound vastly different. So you can't say that all that determines the 'mood' of a piece is the intervalllic structuring.

PS 'mood' isn't the best word choice.

You must remember that the distance of middle C -C1 is less than the distance from C1 - C2, as an octave is double the frequency, rather than being a strict physical distance between two notes. Therefore, even an octave moved up or down is, in the strictest terms, not the same interval, as the frequencies are different. The distance between C-D is different from the distance between D-E, even though they are, in musical terms, the same interval. The physical distance is further, as the frequencies are further apart. Therefore, even transposing a piece by one semitone will vastly change the sound, as even though the 'named' intervals may be the same, the actual distance between each note is now completely different.

You have the right idea - you're just saying it wrong.

the emphasis of the Diminished Fifth in Myxolydian that makes it sound Myxolydian, and so on

This is wrong. The mixolydian mode has a flattened 7th (minor 7). the 5th is perfect, and not, as you stated, diminished.

 

[futures]

Ah yes, honest mistake there. I recall now that mixolydian works best over the tonality of the Dominant 7th.

Thanks for the comments! I guess we all learn something new every day. I do agree with what you have mentioned as well, that timbre matters too, not just choice of intervals.

Anyway, just to clarify, intervals can be counted up as well as down. So if i were to say a minor 2nd up from C, would it be the same as me saying an augmented unison from C? I understand the importance of distinguishing between augmented, diminished, flatted, and sharp, all used in context of course, but are the terms mentioned in my above question synonymous?