Freemansland, good or bad?
- Thread starter daryl
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MaCcA
New member
He hasn't seen my band, neither were we recommended. We just had to express our interest and we're in. It's as simple as that. Of course this is not an attempt to dis-credit freemansland. I'm just saying what Daryl said is valid and it isn't very fair to brush his opinions aside based on what u said.
This thread will become useful if people make rationale and supported suggestions.
My take from this thread is: It is much better to have some form of QC than no QC at all.
This way the above mentioned issues will be minimized.
I think that while Daryl has some valid points these shows do serve some kind of purpose in the growth of the SG scene.
It basically gives newbie bands a chance to perform before an audience of sorts. There is an invaluable learning that occurs when you play live for the first time. For some they realize that they suck and drop the playing in a band, others realize the need to improve and work hard. If they just hid in the studio they may never get that needed third party input that helps them grow.
For the audience, I think we have clearly identified here that the only people who will go for these shows are friends of the bands who want to support. They will be attending the show knowing full well that they are paying to see a bunch of newbie bands, and as their objective is to support friends they wont be too bothered if the other bands suck. It makes their friends look better, and if its really so bad they can always go and have a drink outside!
I agree strongly with James comment that, so long as it happens behind closed doors (and no in the middle of Orchard Road), it doesn't harm anyone.
Before we had platforms like this you used to see tons of threads from new bands complaining got no gigs. Now some enterprising souls have met that need. I don't see those threads anymore.
So long as the bands are aware what they are getting into (in terms of ticket selling commitment) I really seem no harm in these shows.
Having said that, there is no way i would ever attend on either!
It basically gives newbie bands a chance to perform before an audience of sorts. There is an invaluable learning that occurs when you play live for the first time. For some they realize that they suck and drop the playing in a band, others realize the need to improve and work hard. If they just hid in the studio they may never get that needed third party input that helps them grow.
For the audience, I think we have clearly identified here that the only people who will go for these shows are friends of the bands who want to support. They will be attending the show knowing full well that they are paying to see a bunch of newbie bands, and as their objective is to support friends they wont be too bothered if the other bands suck. It makes their friends look better, and if its really so bad they can always go and have a drink outside!
I agree strongly with James comment that, so long as it happens behind closed doors (and no in the middle of Orchard Road), it doesn't harm anyone.
Before we had platforms like this you used to see tons of threads from new bands complaining got no gigs. Now some enterprising souls have met that need. I don't see those threads anymore.
So long as the bands are aware what they are getting into (in terms of ticket selling commitment) I really seem no harm in these shows.
Having said that, there is no way i would ever attend on either!
daryl
New member
I think I came off as too aggressive, but I have never pinpointed anything down in my words, all I did was to suggest, and ask for opinions.
After 3 pages, I think we all agree that most of us shouldn't go for such shows, as they are basically shows that newbie bands would ask their friends to go for, and are normally of a low standard.
I agree with Soft's comment that the damage done on the impression of local music isn't as bad as if the shows were held along Orchard Road. However, we must consider that the 'friends' of those newbie bands, if they are new to local music, would view the show as representative of the scene, and may get turned off.
There were suggestions made (by the heimlich maneuver and others) that ask for the newbie bands to diy and organise their own shows with a few other bands, then sharing the profits/losses whichever way they want. I think that's a great idea, and will be a great alternative to the system by freemansland as the bands will learn much more, as they would have to do it all by themselves.
As a matter of fact, I do see such shows coming up, and I would most certainly rather attend those shows than a show by freemansland, mostly because of the respect for their passion, and because in such collaborations, there would be a certain level of qc imposed by each band on each other band.
After 3 pages, I think we all agree that most of us shouldn't go for such shows, as they are basically shows that newbie bands would ask their friends to go for, and are normally of a low standard.
I agree with Soft's comment that the damage done on the impression of local music isn't as bad as if the shows were held along Orchard Road. However, we must consider that the 'friends' of those newbie bands, if they are new to local music, would view the show as representative of the scene, and may get turned off.
There were suggestions made (by the heimlich maneuver and others) that ask for the newbie bands to diy and organise their own shows with a few other bands, then sharing the profits/losses whichever way they want. I think that's a great idea, and will be a great alternative to the system by freemansland as the bands will learn much more, as they would have to do it all by themselves.
As a matter of fact, I do see such shows coming up, and I would most certainly rather attend those shows than a show by freemansland, mostly because of the respect for their passion, and because in such collaborations, there would be a certain level of qc imposed by each band on each other band.
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daryl
New member
I think the issue that troubles me the most, is not the paying to play issue, rather, it's the standard of bands at those shows. I do not see why the organisers cannot ask for a simple demo or two, or go down to the band's jamming session for a quick audition, if they are serious about the music.
Demos can be made easily. Not good demos, but decent demos. All you need is a zoom h2 recorder, which comes by pretty cheap, and you can record demos all day long. If a band can't afford it, I'm sure they have friends who own such equipment. A laptop could be used too.
My point is, if a band does not bother to make a demo and send it to organisers, they donot deserve a slot to play on a stage.
If an organiser does not bother to ask for a demo or an audition, it is pretty clear where their objectives lie.
Demos can be made easily. Not good demos, but decent demos. All you need is a zoom h2 recorder, which comes by pretty cheap, and you can record demos all day long. If a band can't afford it, I'm sure they have friends who own such equipment. A laptop could be used too.
My point is, if a band does not bother to make a demo and send it to organisers, they donot deserve a slot to play on a stage.
If an organiser does not bother to ask for a demo or an audition, it is pretty clear where their objectives lie.
izzyrose
New member
Daryl definitely brings up some good points such as organisers that are profit driven, but from what i heard kaisheng from freemansland is not such a person. We shouldn't flame organisers if we don't know for ourselves what kind of people they are. This "pay to play" thing is pretty popular now and i doon't think the bands that are doing it are complaining so what's the problem?
tpiledriver
New member
The ones who are replying here are probably those who had experiences with the 'pay to play'.
and imo, a band should do a demo of their song or a proper studio recording and hand it to the organizers to listen before they are allowed to play at the events.
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freemansland
New member
Listen, i m going to repeat this for the last time. We do not FORCE bands to play for our shows! If you do not like the way we do things, IGNORE the thread or do not attend the events! We do not need your support if you think those bands CMI because that's the reason why we set up this organization to provide a platform for this bands. But as i mentioned, no one actually supports these bands therefore its the wisest approach to protect both parties as we embark on this movement. Which point do you not understand?! Right now, we have lower from 25-15 which some organizers still adopt. Its festive season, rental is more expensive. Its an alcoholic drink + soft drink , bands can stay on to club for free if they wish. AND fyi the clubbing party tickets are priced at $20, while the gigs which is handled by us are priced at $14. Seriously, its so tiring explaining, just try organizing instead of sitting behind the computer and start criticizing digitally because you make me - KAISHENG think that you are a joke. I emphasis that its ME- KAISHENG not Freemansland. Get a grip.
fgl
Well-known member
chicken and egg story in my time -
cant get expirience without the publicity but cant get the publicity without first getting the expirience .....
I do agree that some sort of QC / audition should be instituted by gig organizers, just as most musical competitions do have the initial audition stage.
cant get expirience without the publicity but cant get the publicity without first getting the expirience .....
I do agree that some sort of QC / audition should be instituted by gig organizers, just as most musical competitions do have the initial audition stage.
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jbarks
New member
I don't think it's easy for someone to just "chill out" when you've just made so many comments on his organisation...
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from the perspective of a gig-goer i would not attend such gigs bec honestly the quality of bands is dubious sadly. but that doesn't mean i think that such organisers shldnt be allowed or that they are cheats etc.........that is their own business just as it is the business of the bands who choose to participate.
from the band perspective i would also never want to take part bec why i shld i pressure myself to sell tics for others when i cld DIY? but you see, thats MY choice..... if others still wanna do it despite my advice i leave it to them really.......gripe for what?
just like i KNOW theres a lot of terrible music out there but i can always switch off (more or less) if i don't like it.........
from the band perspective i would also never want to take part bec why i shld i pressure myself to sell tics for others when i cld DIY? but you see, thats MY choice..... if others still wanna do it despite my advice i leave it to them really.......gripe for what?
just like i KNOW theres a lot of terrible music out there but i can always switch off (more or less) if i don't like it.........
freemansland
New member
For next year onwards, we will be re-direted event ( Majority ) to make sure people wont misunderstand our intentions. And of course, we will be looking at better bands and not new bands. Safer for our branding since inevitably people tend to think that booking of venue in a club is free or cheap.
We are re-positioning not because of what people think but rather we rather not be dragged into entertaining this kind of issues.
For the new bands maybe you can try ultrasound gigs then maybe you can clearly differentiate us with them!
Kaisheng
We are re-positioning not because of what people think but rather we rather not be dragged into entertaining this kind of issues.
For the new bands maybe you can try ultrasound gigs then maybe you can clearly differentiate us with them!
Kaisheng
neuro182
New member
May I be allowed to input my 2 cents worth...
Firstly, gig organizer has to fork out the capital to rent the location and possibly equipments in order to organize a show, so it is inevitable that bands who want to perform should at least help to share in covering the cost. Of course the organizers should be transparent about the cost and earnings if he/she/they are truly trying to help the local scene.
Question here, [1] don't you think gig organizer should be paid in part as well for the time and effort they put in to org the event? [2] And also, should bands be paid for their time and effort put into jamming and the moolah they paid for the sessions spent?
In this simple case, obviously we can see that both parties are suffering in their pockets, so I personally, think that the situation would be optimized by leveraging the cost onto the gig-goers (like you and me). At the end of the day, it is the moolah that keeps thing going. There ain't no free lunch in the world.
My take on the gig organizers - maybe a certain standard should be set so that clowny bands (like what daryl pointed out) will not destroy your rep and facilitate for better shows and better turnouts in the future. Try to stick with 1 location to get some sort of member rate for renting the place/equipments. In this way, the ticket cost would be lowered for the gig-goers and help us buy more Mac Saver Meals!! :lol:
My take on bands - if they are willing to pay to play, then I see no problem at all.
My take on audiences - if they are willing to support their buddies and buy the tickets, then again, no problem @ all.
So at the end of the day, with so many handshaking processes in place, are the gig organizers really profiteering from the bands' sales of ticket? Are bands really being exploited @ the end of the days? Are audiences being cheated to go to a show with really nothing but crappy performances?
Firstly, gig organizer has to fork out the capital to rent the location and possibly equipments in order to organize a show, so it is inevitable that bands who want to perform should at least help to share in covering the cost. Of course the organizers should be transparent about the cost and earnings if he/she/they are truly trying to help the local scene.
Question here, [1] don't you think gig organizer should be paid in part as well for the time and effort they put in to org the event? [2] And also, should bands be paid for their time and effort put into jamming and the moolah they paid for the sessions spent?
In this simple case, obviously we can see that both parties are suffering in their pockets, so I personally, think that the situation would be optimized by leveraging the cost onto the gig-goers (like you and me). At the end of the day, it is the moolah that keeps thing going. There ain't no free lunch in the world.
My take on the gig organizers - maybe a certain standard should be set so that clowny bands (like what daryl pointed out) will not destroy your rep and facilitate for better shows and better turnouts in the future. Try to stick with 1 location to get some sort of member rate for renting the place/equipments. In this way, the ticket cost would be lowered for the gig-goers and help us buy more Mac Saver Meals!! :lol:
My take on bands - if they are willing to pay to play, then I see no problem at all.
My take on audiences - if they are willing to support their buddies and buy the tickets, then again, no problem @ all.
So at the end of the day, with so many handshaking processes in place, are the gig organizers really profiteering from the bands' sales of ticket? Are bands really being exploited @ the end of the days? Are audiences being cheated to go to a show with really nothing but crappy performances?
wylde
New member
i think that this thread should be locked and if any case,freemansland can contact the threadstarter to talk about his unhappiness..
why bicker over such things on the net and make this organisation look like a complete fool.
i believe that they have their reasons for this and like what freemansland is saying,if one is not happy,then dont support their activites...
but,it`s not good to flame them on a public website.....they are also dong their best i believe..it is very easy to flame,but it`s so difficult to learn and contribute..
i`m just saying
why bicker over such things on the net and make this organisation look like a complete fool.
i believe that they have their reasons for this and like what freemansland is saying,if one is not happy,then dont support their activites...
but,it`s not good to flame them on a public website.....they are also dong their best i believe..it is very easy to flame,but it`s so difficult to learn and contribute..
i`m just saying
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