Freemansland, good or bad?

[daryl]

Just in case the title is taken out of context, this thread is to discuss whether these kind of pay to play gigs, where no auditions of any kind are held, are beneficial or detrimental to the scene. Is there exploitation of newbie bands in any way? Created this thread so as not to clutter up the freemansland thread posted in the musician's wanted section.

I'm pretty sure most of us here are aware of the topic, it has been discussed a lot and although most of us feel that it is bad, it is still around due to demand of gigs by newbie bands.

A search on soft should bring up a few old threads.

You guys could also refer to http://soft.com.sg/forum/musicians-bands-wanted/92268-25th-december-bands-needed-showcase-7.html for a lengthy but entertaining thread which was pretty recent, in which the organiser refused to answer any of my points, hence the need for this thread.

Amidst the clutter of pointless threads, i believe this thread is slightly less pointless, and the discussion could bring about greater awareness to newbies and veterans alike on the pros and cons of such shows.

 

[daryl]

What troubles me the most, is that organisers of such shows, with freemansland as an example, do not hold any auditions or ask for any demos to participating bands. All they require are contact details and names. This obviously shows us their utter indifference towards the bands' music and that they are only interested in getting the required amount of money to pay for the costs of rental.

Should bands who are just starting out, who play badly, with untuned guitars and out of time instruments everywhere, be playing shows? The supply of such an avenue by organisers such as freemansland, would lead to such bands looking to play a show even when they are first starting out.

This is not good as playing badly at a show would turn off potential fans, and showcasing the worst side of yourself isn't the thing most people want to do. Yet, there are such bands around, who play shows even if they aren't really up to standard, mostly because they are craving the experience i would guess.

I must highlight that the kaisheng from freemansland has told me himself that "5 out of 10 bands are bad" and that he has seen "really awful bands" at his shows. He redeems himself by saying that the other 5 are decent. If he wants to dispute this quotation, so be it, but I am speaking the truth here, and if he disputes it he is not really a man of integrity.

Should bad bands be allowed on stage? If the bands play badly, ultimately the experience of the show would be a bad one. The supporters who bought the tickets for $14 each feel cheated, the bands feel crappy for playing a lousy show, while the innocent show organiser manages to cover a bit more of his cost, maybe even profiting. Is this exploitation?

 

[HaruChan]

one point to note, is that sometimes whether a music is good or can be subjective and thus might limit the type and variety of music you can get with gigs, even amatuers should get a chance to perform even if they do not sound that good. On the other hand it might really sieve out the really "noob" band of sorts but then again, I don't really think anyone have the right to say that anybody is not good enough to perform on stage. if you really dislike the standard of the gig then just don't attend?

 

[daryl]

^ I get your point about subjectivity, but there is a inherent sense of good and bad in all of us, and you can disagree with me all you want about subjectivity, but at the end of it all, most people favour certain traits in music such as playing in time, and in key.

Most people who attend these shows go there to support their friends, by buying the stipulated amount of tickets from the members of the bands, so they can play a show. My point is, that the really amateurish bands should be sieved out at the very least.

In other words, there should be requests for demos or auditions.

 

[soft]

I think it is a great idea! This is an open market. The bands are clever people who wants to perform. Somemore, they are able to see who will come and support their performance.

daryl, dont be too hard on organisers. If their show model doesn't work, they will fine tune until it works. If it works, why ask them to change?

* Pub bands will not get any work if they do not bring in the spending crowds.

 

[tim098]

This can be an endless debate. Some say organisers should do all the marketing and publicity, and NEVER make bands pay to play, whether forced or not.

Others say the bands, because they are small-time and most likely of low standard, should do their own of the above mentioned. And sell the damn tickets.

I personally would never subject myself or any band I am in to play in pay-to-play gigs, because I feel I am above that standard.

As for freemansland, realistically speaking, they are a company headed by a very young man. I doubt if the average age of the staff is above 22 years even. For the lack of a better word I'll use amateur. For an amateur company like this, I don't think we can expect top notch event organising skills and execution. (FML hope u know that im not calling the company amateur in a derogatory manner, i just have no clue what other word to use since its 3 am)

And besides, I ll say this bluntly. It is homeclub. It doesn't demand a high standard, of anything at all. Yup that's what I think about stuff

 

[Ized]

From my personal point of view like what daryl has mentioned such bands who played with untuned guitars and shitty in terms of standard shouldnt even be allowed on stage.

But, in lieu of this, i dont think this is going to change anytime soon. The music scene here I feel is more profit-driven than anything else, and this constitutes whether an organiser would be able to survive after more than a few shows. They can, of course take the "help the scene more than help ourselves approach" like the organiser known as CAVEvents we remember not too long ago, but well the consequences can be disastrous - bands exploiting organisers and freeloading. This can go both ways - organisers or bands, which requires a mutual understanding and trust between both parties.

 

[fgl]

* Pub bands will not get any work if they do not bring in the spending crowds.

not 100% true all the time ..... but generally a rule of the thumb for most small time pubs where as bigger clubs, country clubs, hotel gigs etc - all are not so economics of scaled mindset ....

I kinda of support Daryl's opinion though. No disrespect to any org who do whatthey gotta do but I when I started out - even b4 me & my band even performed 1st time ever on stage - we rehersed and polished up our act..... new bands need to do this and not just find a paying to play option way out.

I fully support competitions (free or paying) as an avenue and platform for young up & coming bands to measure themselves up .

2 cents on a Wed mornin ...

 

[soft]

daryl

If your worry is that not-ready-bands are allowed on stage to perform to a group of paying audience, then the situation is not so bad. This is because they paid to support these bands. And these gigs are usually indoor, contained.

The less ideal situation are those playing in public like along Orchard Road or Esplanade Outdoor where it is free. The not-so-good performance will project a "wow, local music like that?" effect.

 

[smurfpiss]

daryl

If your worry is that not-ready-bands are allowed on stage to perform to a group of paying audience, then the situation is not so bad. This is because they paid to support these bands. And these gigs are usually indoor, contained.

The less ideal situation are those playing in public like along Orchard Road or Esplanade Outdoor where it is free. The not-so-good performance will project a "wow, local music like that?" effect.

ditto

But I really do feel that the bands in general should step up more to polish their performance to an acceptable standard (yes there is a threshold of universal "standard" before it becomes subjective) before playing any gigs. I mean why going up and play a sub par set that will only shoo away would be fans or disappointing your friends, it's just shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[FluxUs]

it really takes 2 hands to clap..........in any case pay 2 play organisers' main audience is not the public but bands themselves hahaha they provide a kind of 'service'and low-cost platform so to speak....... the obligation on the bands part is to sell tickets and aggressively promote themselves to frens and supporters. This may not actually be such a bad thing at least the bands will get a sense of wat hard work it is to push yourself to uninterested ppl hahah...........

i for one wld never attend such gigs unless i have frens who are playin and yes i wld probably support them. Even if i knew that most money goes to the organisers........and so long as my frens are fine w the arrangement i think i have no business griping abt how much the organiser makes watever.........

 

[FluxUs]

all that said i think it really makes more sense for bands to DIY, hire places like Music Garage, Odiocrib or Beat Merchants and do yr own show along w other bands. It's really not v difficult to organise and not costly and you will have less pressure to fill up the space 'cause its not that big hahaha.........

think abt it, u have to sell 20 tickets at $15 each that makes it wat, 300? for less or even a lil more u can hire yr own space w other bands, split the costs and proceeds and its all yr own effort and gain at the end.

no offense to pay2play organisers but just my 'advice' to young bands

 

[the heimlich maneuver]

band should never ever pay to play.

if you're so desperate to play, make sure u have at least 1 or 2 original songs.
if you want to perform and play covers only,might as well go and be a cover band in a pub.

being in a band is about writing your own songs and performing ur own songs.

as for gigs, making ur own gigs would be easier like FluxUs said.
lets say you book odiocrib for 4 hours. that would be $240.

get about 5 bands? each band pays about $48. all the profits will go back to the bands.

or if an organiser wants to get bands to sell tickets, another alternative can be asking the bands to pay for their slot, $30? then give them tickets to sell.the money from those ticket sales are for the band to keep. its a win win situation for organiser and bands.

just my opinion on this matter.

 

[emochick]

opps, i posted my reply in the other thread. so i'm gonna copy it here.

i totally understand what Freemansland is doing. i mean, selling the 15 (or required amount) tickets is pretty much just selling to your friends. to put it bluntly, it makes things easier. for example, if a friend of mine says "hey i've got a gig coming up. message me if you want tickets". chances of me going are higher than "hey i've got a gig coming up. tickets available at such and such". it's not as if the company isn't doing any sort of publicity. the bands should do their own publicity and get the word out about their own music. they can't expect to sign up to play a gig yet not tell anyone about it. selling the required number of tickets just ensures that there are actually people turning up for the gig.

my 0.01cent worth.

 

[marcdadrummer]

great point brought up by daryl there...

But to start somewhere, one has to work from the bottom up i guess... everyone have their own heroes and idols and lets face it, music from the western region really influence alot on our youngsters here that they really want to be like them. New bands, been around but didn't get mainstream, and such.

So what do they do? they'd dedicate some effort in trying to be like them.. pooling in other people who have the same objectives and forming a "new" band.

i've been down that road before and back at the good ol days, jamming at the beat up wee lee studios in simei industrial park (wonder the uncle still there anot)... lol

but yeah, the feeling to play gigs, even as sucky as we are is still there.. thus talking in economics term, the demand for this Paytoplay gigs is very very inelastic as new "noob" or just starting out bands appear.

the new bands just doesn't know the load of hard work, dedication and much much time dedicated to bringing well known bands like paramore to be in mainstream attention, i guess this p2p is the best alternative choice then..

im not on all disagreement with p2p gigs tho. Some bands or individual artists, who are actually really good, and maybe really new in the scene, could try out this way too as it exposes them. bring them forth out of the shell.

ultimately, just work hard and im sure that your bands will get called in for shows.

my two cents.

 

[MaCcA]

From the perspective of my band, which is one of the participating bands for freemansland on xmas, we treat every gig with equal importance.

Whether it is paid or not, we look at it as another opportunity to perform and we treasure each and every opportunity to display a performance to the best of our abilities.

It doesn't mean that just because we got ourselves a guaranteed slot at a gig, that we take it for granted and perform without regards for any standards.

We cannot guarantee that after countless practices, we can meet the standards of every one in the crowd, but we can assure everyone that we have put in maximum effort in preparing for the gig, and that we will be of an acceptable standard to say the least.

Cheers!
Stargazers

 

[zax]

Hmm bands should never pay to play ??. ok ok here's my view on it .

You can't just start a band and expect random people to come for your shows , Freemansland provides a starting platform for new bands to perform , with that in mind good bands stand out and slowly start getting noticed and the cycle goes on . Now Daryl , if you keep nailing organisers thinking you are doing justice for new bands . You certainly are not . Instead you could possibly be killing good talent in the making or slowing down their progress . New bands need a lot of experience and the more gigs they get the possibility of improving increases .


Personally I think the threadstarter is overreacting and he should just let it go . Stop being a critic and do something about it . If not whatever you are trying to prove becomes pointless . Typical singaporeans just sit behind that screen and type but thats all . ONLY A RARE FEW ACTUALLY GIVE A SHIT , and sadly you are not one of them . We all know being in a band is not easy but if the band can direct itself properly , your advice or two cents worth isn't needed or wanted either .


Moreover , I know Kaisheng personally and he is NOT profit driven . You assume and start flaming but have you met the guy?

with that i urge the moderators to close this thread .

 

[MaCcA]

on the contrary i think daryl has highlighted very valid points.

things like asking for a demo or two from bands isn't too difficult.

Sure, bands can still be made to sell tix, but you can at least, on a very basic level, differentiate a band which is serious and one which is not.

Daryl did seem over-aggressive at first, but i think he has justified his arguements pretty well

 

[zax]

He invites bands based on recommendations and bands that he himself has seen perform i guess . Of course bands must have a minimum standard .

I've made a few recommendations to him myself . Not everything works the way you think is ideal because people work differently

 

[FrancescaAnn]

Different people have different means of working weather you like it or not. If bands personally have something against freemansland, then just avoid them. I don't see why anyone has to make such a big hullaballoo over this. Freemansland does not force bands nor make it an obligation to play for them. If the bands themselves do not contravene with their policies, i don't see why the audience should. If events organized by freemansland bothers you(in general) so much, then just don't attend.

Threads like these are as useless as a dog trying to chase it's own tail.