Free gigs anyone? It's time to make a stand, musicians!

[invasiontour]

I totally disagree with your notion, a band should trade $ for exposure if they are getting a good deal.

How do you figure if your getting a good deal?

Simple,

the amount of marketing being put out by the organizer, the amount of milage you will get on the collaterals of the event. the expected turn out, the type of crowd coming to the show, will there be people there that could possibly hire you for another event.

if you really want to check the number of expected attendees on the events facebook page then go ahead. more often than not its not a good marker. But everything else you can get from the organizer.

If your band decides that your not getting a good deal trading $ for exposure for that particular event, then dont play! nobody is forcing you to!

But of course there will be people like your self who will protest.

"ohh but what about the other singaporean bands, some band is going to take that slot anyway, what is this!? wheres the sense of camredire?! Lets boycott and stand up for our rights and demand minimum wage! a Union yes, a union would be what we need!"

Heres the deal, the band that played that gig you rejected, they either figured that trading $ for exposure works in this instance for them or they just really like playing music and they just wanna have fun. How is any of that wrong?

Look, i understand you have good intentions. you want singaporean musicians to get paid (at least something lah) and recognized for their efforts. Which is all good and well. but your arguing on the basis of what is fair to you but our ideas of what is fair differ. We think that trading $ for exposure can be beneficial at times and we would like to be able to choose to play a free gig if the exposure is good enough thank you very much.

We are musicians, the last thing we need is a union to speak for us.

Get good enough people will approach you to speak on your behalf and set minimum wage, for a nominal fee of course. These people are known as agents.

Your agent wouldnt be too happy if you played a free gig or two.. that would mean he or she gets well.. nothing.

Oh and has he or she told you that playing free gigs just dilutes your image and makes you look cheap. Thats just his or her way of telling you that she wont be able to charge more money for you if you play free shows.. Oh wait, that would also mean a smaller cut for him and her.. Aww, poor little agent man/woman.

You traded off 1000 dollars to play a show that has lets say 800 people, You played to a crowd for free, you have more people that are aware of your music, you've potentially gained more fans, when your band releases a CD or some merch you have more potential customers.

So if you were to sell your CD's at 15 dollars. you have to sell 66.6 cd's to make back that 1000 dollars.

66.6 (nice number eh? :evil: ) people out of 800 people = less than 10% il take the odds.


if you want to argue that the cd price is too expensive 15 dollars too much, ok lah. 10 bucks per CD!

100 out of 800 to make back that 1000 dollars people. thats still 12.something percent.

Then again. poor mr agent man/woman...

S
WestGrandBoulevard
www.myspace.com/westgrandboulevard

 

[MadWerewolfBoy]

perhaps we should all just be glad to be given the opportunity to perform, isnt that what its all about in the first place?

eh, i always thought that was what profit-making gig organisers want newly started bands to keep thinking.. until they break up that is..

 

[invasiontour]

eh, i always thought that was what profit-making gig organisers want newly started bands to keep thinking.. until they break up that is..

Newly started bands usually need more time to practice and get good before they can command a following and a price for their performance.

The reason why organizers take these bands is coz they dont have a budget to pay better bands. If they had better budget the slot wouldnt be opened for these new bands in the first place. So all is well, young and new bands get to practice playing to a crowd which helps them more than anything. organizers stay within budget.

dont be anti establishment just for the sake of it..

 

[kongwee]

Actually this is nothing, I done straight five day free gig. All I got is a dinner at a ok restaurant.

 

[MadWerewolfBoy]

if you know what you're doing, and have perfect knowledge (in the economic sense) of what's available, where you stand in the market, how much your performances are worth etc, and you still willingly do free gigs, then that's perfectly fine because you most probably did it for some other benefit that's worth it to you other than money.

here, we're talking about bands having imperfect knowledge, getting knocked off by profit-making organisers who've been in the scene slightly longer. i stress, profit-making. there's a difference between organisers not having enough budget to pay bands and organisers who don't put aside a budget to pay bands.

lets plug in some numbers. if an organiser made a profit of $1000 from organising a gig at a club. 5 bands played. if each band was paid $100, and the organiser took $500. is it fair? hard to answer, but it is definitely more fair than each band getting nothing and organiser taking a 100% cut. same applies for examples using $100 profit to $10000 profit. fans / friends spent money to watch the bands perform. in other words, they spent money on the bands, but somehow non of it ended up with them? not too fair indeed. and not very smart for bands to do that, in fact, but they don't know better.

if an event was not ticketed, and the organiser broke even or had profits from sponsors and adverts, then the organiser is entitled to 100% of the extra cash, which isn't really considered ticketed profits. events like these are most probably public and out-doors, so bands will get a lot of exposure, which is a non-monetry benefit. good enough because they played to people they don't know and they didn't put in any effort selling tickets to fans / friends. same goes for ticketed events for charity / good will.

 

[evangoh]

MadWerewolfBoy : you just summed it all up. I. Totally. Agree.

 

[parablue74]

It's a back-2-back issue, this one!! Bands are playing for free becos they are not getting enough exposure, not to mention young teen bands that just want to have the fun of playing on the stage and will even get money from their parents to pay to play. Organisers are charging bands to play or make them play free since organisers themselves are not getting enough $$ and many are making losses instead. NAC are not bothered to fund or sponsor much, since the turnout for many events ain't giving them an incentive to do it. Radio stations aren't spinning local acts much since there isn't enough good quality produced tracks up from local acts. Local acts ain't getting enough $$ to finance their production of their songs to bring them to the commercial standard. Magazines ain't writing much for local acts, since again, there aren't enough following to it and not much good releases going on. There aren't enough labels willing to take out $$, since local acts tend to suffer in terms of following, again also due to lag of performances and good well-done albums.
And it goes on and on....
So what i believe is needed is to find a way, a loophole in the present music economic status of local music market to break out of this stigma.
What local music market need to understand nowadays is that local shouldn't be just focused on local nowadays. The whole world market has changed. It's now international, internet is international, facebook is international.
Spreading their name around shouldn't be just inclined to local audience only. Many overseas original acts are already spreading their name all over in the internet, to anybody from anywhere.
Original music is what builds up the local market. If the only market that pays here are cover bands, and every pub owner only see the nostalgic incentive that cover bands are an easier route, the eventual state of the local music and entertainment market will just die out. And what really dies out is identity. Identity brings about the reason why WHY People will want entertainment locally. And becos of this failure to understand that original acts are the foundation and pillars of the local scene is the reason why this market is just dying day by day, suffering setbacks over and over and not climbing at all.
What original acts themselves need to understand is that they need bigger patience...if you want to come out with better product, you need bigger patience.. if you want to play in gigs, you need longer practices..
Local acts need to raise their standard bar and not whine about why they are not accepted most of the time. And if they find their work ain't in par with what's out overseas, then they should bring their standard there, rather than compete locally.
Personally, when i reference my productions with other's works, i never reference to local acts, but basically, the best productions i like from around the world. We have to try to get our standard to our ideal acts and bring more perfectionism in our works. Only then can there be a higher possibility of success and people will recognise local standard more. Don't let time and impatience get in the way.
Another thing about local acts is that, local acts needs to place more originality in their works. I hate to be realistic, but no1, if every asian band is following US or UK styles, why would they be accepted in US or UK?? You are not white skin! Your Singaporean accent is strong and don't speak like a caucasian! Not to mention, if you cannot get your standard to be as good as them.
So what comes out of it isn't just about writing songs and following what's on the radio all the time... it's about thinking, and a lot of thinking...
You need to think... what makes your band special?? What unique quality do you have, in terms of your culture, in terms of what you are, that can be converted musically to sound great and different from what you hear overseas...
All this comes with experimentation.... and that's what is lagging!!
When i listen to the old tokyo square that made it to the US back in the 70s.. it was the fact that their songs are Singapore (not following western styles too much), and it's that Singaporean taste in their songs, yet good melodies, that brought them that good strong factor of difference. Difference ain't always a bad thing, it's how you apply it.
Another thing that i see will bring out local scene is Internet Radio..which is another thing that seems to be lagging..! There should be more of those coming out to support the local scene..
And finally, i feel we shouldn't just look at ourselves only on the local grounds..
If we are always aiming our sponsorships locally, how can we build up our scene like that with limited internal resources..to say it this way, SOFT itself should be more international..
When the world sees local acts, forums, radio, ezines, etc... with more regard, then the world can support us too....

 

[MadWerewolfBoy]

Magazines ain't writing much for local acts, since again, there aren't enough following to it and not much good releases going on.

This reminds me, back about 2 years ago, there used to be this magazine called LIME under mediacorp and they did quite an extensive coverage on local bands as a mainstream magazine..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lime_(magazine)

it was discontinued suddenly with no public statements as to why, and that was just sad news for local bands..

 

[RudimentalDrummer]

Paid or No Paid Gigs – really depends on – The Objectives of the Band ( It members makeup) – and such Objectives are usually or is best to be laid out right at the start – so that no misunderstanding will arise – as the Band move along from it’s Initiation from the start – and is good for everyone.

Seriously everyone love to get Paid to play (even if they are so call a Hobbyiest Band)…But to a Hobbyiest Band ( This is Secondary ) – The Love and Passion for their Music is Priority (why the band was formulated in the 1st Place)….so Paid Gigs are Bonuses.

To get Paid – a Band has to be Really Good & Tight, has a Huge Repertoire (this comes through time) and the music are Usually Commercial Songs (usually I say)….as to get paid means – you play what the market wants from you (If you cant play what they wants) why would they pay you?…thus Professionals Musician is different (in a way) from Hobbyiest….there will be some difference…

But – most of us here are not Professional Musicians but – We Love Music, we hope if possible, we could Play These Music that we love so much – thus we look for people with our same interest and form a Band (if we are lucky enough to get the RIGHT PEOPLE) eg other musicians (who are akin to us – with same objectives) eg Working People or Scooling whatever - taking music altogether as a Hobby and Passion – so we can all enjoy music together as a whole.

Through time ( Friendship and Relationship become closer as the bands understand each other personally or musically) -- - and most bands would love to showcase their music now (once they are tight and have more repertoire) and they wanna gain more exposure (as this is important to gain confidence level) ….. to these Bands/Hobbyiests – They usually don’t get paid or don’t even bother to be Paid – and just enjoy themselves here…

Even if they are a pretty Tight and good Comercially Marketable Band in the future – They might not wants to get Paid (for Many Different Reasons) - -Eg

A Club wanna sign this Band in – but the condition is that you would have to play ( 5 or 6 days a week) with a Contract of 3 months or 6 months….Most Hobbyiest Band will not take these offer as it is Tough (required Committed Time from Band Members here) …..but they all have many other Commitment

Eg…Work or Study, Wify, Children, or if they have a Few GFs for instance, what about their other Hobbies etc (as a Hobbyiest) – but they still want to enjoy Music with their Band?

Unless a Club offers – Pnce or Twice a week Contract to these Bands – they will not sign up for it…

Here is where – Soft Bands Collective comes into play….

We hope to – let these Bands and People at Soft enjoy their Passion and at the same time ( Even Better Still) – meet other bands and Musicians here at Soft – to have a Wonderful Experience altogether and enjoy our Music Hobby as this particular Group constitute The Largest Segment here.

Paid or Not Paid Gigs is at the end of the Day – based on the Band and it’s members Objectives altogether – That’s why it must gel – and they are all RIGHT OBJECTIVES.

 

[RudimentalDrummer]

ThreadStarter Chris you say : -

Can bands here agree on a minimum fee? Seriously.

FACT: Local bands agree to play for free. QUESTION: Can bands just please STOP playing for free(except for charity shows perhaps, or your friend's gig)?

True story: I used to get slammed by other local bands and organisers for wanting payment for any performance my band did - apart from charity shows. I wasn't asking for much, just taxi fare to go home after the gig, and food and drinks (not even free flow, just for the meal). That's $100 for the whole band. Is that too much?

It's basic math: If you spend $100 on rehearsals plus transport for each gig, and you make $0 from each gig, if you were as prolific as GSE in their first year, playing 60 gigs, you'd have made a total of -$6,000. Do we really want to lose money every time we did a gig? I don't think so. And I don't think we should. If nothing else, we should cut costs at least.

It's time we took a stand: Say "no" to free gigs (unless it's charity shows or if you're helping out a friend).



Bro Cristoh

Last mth – someone wanted a Band to play for her Birthday..A Club called me and told me he gave my HP number to this Girl to call me as she is willing to pay for a Band.

And (you all know what happen) – she tells me I will Pay you all but my condition is ( Your Band have to Practice 5 Songs that I wanted to Sing here) …. So I asked here ( What are the songs Title) - - she reply me ( I tell you – you also wont know ) ….. If your Band agree I will send you the 5 Songs….and your band is to play 3-Sets….

Well – I was a little piss off (as she is really Arrogant the way she talks to me) - - Like as if - What are Musicians – we pay u play and you listen to us….that’s about it – That’s the Band’s Job … FYI – she actually said this to me.

So – now the next most important Question here I ask (since she wants this she wants that – and she is so demanding and Bossy) – How much would you be paying our Band to play for your Birthday Party.

She reply S$100.00…so I asked – For 1 member in the Band? She replied – No S$100 for the entire band?.

I said – No-Way Madamn, There is no way (you pay $100 for our entire Band ask this, ask that – overly demanding here ) – and I added – I don’t think any Band would wanna do this for you here for S$100..unless you change your Blady Attitude and Approach here when – you talk to other Bands

She said to me – That’s what Bands do ( I give you the songs you play for me and I wanna sing ) and for $100 – there will be plenty of Bands wanna do this for me…if you don’t want….and she then asked me “ Eric if you don’t mind – why don’t you recommend me your other Friends- Bands ?”

I told here – I wont - she ask me “ Why” – I said They will curse me if I do….and then I said Goodbye and good luck to you here.

See…as a Hobbyiest Band as I’ve mentioned … ( I believed there are many here) - - Getting Paid is a Bonus ( $$$$) yes it might not be much….It’s OK – I mean – if that Girl is not so Rude/Overly Demanding ( and disprespecting Musicians) - -

Seriously – For-Free also I can help her…and it is not how much here… It is

We maintain our Intergrity as a Hobbyiest Band - - - It can be Free (If it is for a Cause), it can be a small token of appreciation too ( a Bonus) , or it can be ( Free Beers and Food) whatever as a Token … But here we are FREE - - If we wanna play we play, of we don’t wanna play (for a right reason we don’t play - - -

At the end of the Day – We and our Band – Must be HAPPY and have Fun, as a Hobbyiest.

We also recognised the Facts that – In taking up any HOBBY – it entails ( $$$$ to be spend) that’s why it is a Hobby ( to make $$$ - we have to be Professionals) – and we cant think it in that way eg ( Have to cover Cost then play) --- of course it is rational to think like that – and as I said before – this is call “ a Bonus “ but – Music if we take it as a hobby is just like any other Hobby – We need to spend $$$ here and don’t think about Returns … then we will be Happy.

If it is all about – have to get paid to play – then be a Professional Musician…..this is the Diff here.

This is just my personal Opinion here…

 

[RudimentalDrummer]

As A Layman – This is how I feel

Pubs / Clubs:-

Today - - Business are pretty Bad in ( Many Clubs) – Only a Few Reknown ones are making money and are paying their Regular In-House Bands – reasonable $$$$ per mth. (besides those fewer still – that pays Reknown Local Bands here a good monthly income to play for their Hotels, clubs etc).

So for these small clubs/pubs – they either now have no bands at all, or they engage some oversea’s bands (from eg Thailand, Philippines ) and really pay them Peanuts per month….It is Survival for these Overseas Bands here and this smaller club so they can still stay in the business…we should understand them.

This scenario will affect our Local Professional bands (I guess) as Local residing here cannot survive on these kind of Pay (they have Family and their Home here) – and I wonder if this is the reason also that – Many Professionals prefer to play in – Private Events (better Pay) and don’t have to spend so much time playing every nite for – a small sum…

But – as I mentioned, there are still many pubs, clubs that do not have an In-House Band now…..I don’t know if these are the reasons, why some of these “ Paid To Play “ comes about – a Win Win that Organiser of these events feels here or not ( They bring Business to the Clubs and at the same time – let some of these local Hobbyiest Bands have a chance to play – but they have to sell tickets) here…Seriously – I do not know – if the Organiser here is making any $$ out of this kind of arrangement.

But it is something like that.

I went to Boat Quay one Saturday as me and my band plays in a Gig (where we have around maybe 12 bands playing on that nite) - - Under RMS ( a Soft Thing too) here – and there I saw – the entire Boat Quay was like Lifeless and it was a Saturday Nite..It is true….Pityful…

As we have a lot of supporters here – we buy drinks and we enjoy ourself there altogether as a family of Bands/Musicians – at least the club make some money (on our drinks) afterall – the place is quite also…

Bands need not pay to play – but of course we buy drinks, TCSS and enjoy the evening…This is reasonable – as the Owner of the Club gave us the place to play for FREE (Electrical Bills and Soundman there is his) .. so it is a Win Win thing here

But of course we don’t play there every nite lah too – somehow the owner got one or 2 bands from our group and pay them also – to play once or twice every week

So everyone’s is Happy here….We had great Fun.

As a Hobbyiest – this is how we enjoy ourself here and as a Group – The same I will foresee – where Soft’s Bands Colelctive – will be moving – it will be in this Directions – in it’s Initiating Process….