Budget solutions for recording drums

[panicnation]

Hi there,

I've been using Garageband to record some basic home demos for a while now, but I'm getting bored with using the preloaded drum loops.

Wondering if anyone could give me any advice on getting drums into my songs?

 

[kongwee]

Well.... Garageband still have some sample drums. Five of them if I remember. You can create your own drum pattern too.

 

[blueprintstudios]

panicnation : welcome to soft. don't mind, some people are a fine mixture between dysfunctionalbrain and dyslexic.heh.

to answer your RECORDING of REAL DRUMS question, your options can vary depends on your budget.
but since you mentioned you've dabbled with garage band for a while now, I assume you would want something decent than a ghetto option (like using iphone to record).
you can either get a Zoom H1 and record at a jamming studio while the drummer listens to the guide on another mp3 player
or Zoom H2n/H4n and wire up via USB to your garageband and record direct.

If your budget allows it (estimate $1K), you can also use Zoom R16/R24 with a set of drum mikes (really affordable drum mic sets would be the Wharfedale KMD-7)

gd luck.

 

[Cheez]

Panicnation, perhaps you can clarify what you mean. When you said "record", do you mean what blueprintstudio said - actual recording of real drums? Or do you mean "sequence" (what Kongwee thought you said) - using samples, loops and sequenced midi? From the context of your post, you sounded like you meant using sequences and loops. But you asked about "recording" - which means using mics on a real drum. Many people mix up the terms and it can be confusing for people who wants to give you advice, so it's helpful to clarify what you actually desire to achieve.

 

[blueprintstudios]

panicnation : on my end I assumed recording of real drums unless mentioned recording of midi drums from the thread topic.

to contributively add on what cheez highlighted on "sequence" (MIDI) which is creating your own drum playing via mouse and keyboard. recording via microphone (signals via Wav/Aiff)

recording microphone options there's stereo. and there's multitrack (more than stereo a.k.a 2 tracks, usually 7 microphones snarekicktomtomtomoverheadoverhead). has feel, but whether you know how to quantize .wav (aiff for mac) drums depends on your audio engineering editing knowledge or you can skip that if your drummer can play to metronome.

recording midi options , there's mouse/keyboard programming(sequence,arrange whatever term) and there's via an E-drumset > Midi to USB interface > your DAW's better sounding drum module. (eventually google free drum vsti's or this link)
this path is usually ideal for the new guys because quantizing midi is easy and have great perfect tempo drums to write on. however, if you don't use multisamples (multiple copies of the single snare sound), it's going to sound fake. and one more thing, E-drum method is more costly because you gotta buy the e-drumset/better drumsound module vsti (optional). unlike jamming studio recording. and lastly , drum mapping with some e-drumset is the entrance to the world of pain for some people. I'm going to skip the pointless part where it's about recording e-drumset > audio output > DAW. cos the next thread you're going to start is "i'm getting bored with the sounds on the drumsound module". so the disadvantage of this part is you gotta learn more of the geek audio/midi stuff than the previous option.

 

[kongwee]

My dyslexic and dysfunctionalbrain know that demo and budget mean. Get a real drummer play and record is very luxurious for a demo if you have no one to look for. Decent drummer is $30/per hour at least. How much do you want to spend on a demo? In average $350 for all midis and $550 for all live recording for a demo.

Of course, if you have really good budget. I am very sure blueprintstudio can help you with your demo as he has done a lot live recording. You can see and hear that in his website. He can link you to many musician/composer/arranger. With his recording service, there you are with a complete solution. A decade of experience, I'm pretty sure he can easily do that.

With string of reply, panication has no reply.

 

[blueprintstudios]

Heh, I don't believe with fb and soft you can't find a decent drummer/friend who would do it for favour or under $20/hr and it usually takes 2 hrs max per song depending on difficulty.$350 and $550 for recording drums (unless more than 7,8 songs) is a serious misleading ignorant miscalculation that reveals unfamiliarity with the whole production process, at least with the cost effective options we have in 2012.

Http://tinyurl.com/recordingstudiolist should get you competitive rates if you choose to engage 3rd party service for now I take it as you want to DIY.

This should answer the question to all those reading. I've said all that needs to be said.

 

[Cheez]

To add on to blueprintstudio, indeed without multisamples, the drums will not only sound fake, it gets boring after a while (which is the point of this post). To make your sample drums less "boring" sounding (ie without recording a real drum set with GOOD drummers), it's not just the tools but the skills. Suggest:

1. Get a good set of samples (my recommendation is Toontracks EZdrummer or Superior Drummer). The increasing numbers of add on drum sets makes it expandable and you get different drum sounds for your different recordings just based on that alone. I don't use loops because of the limitation to editing. There is a place for drum loops - depending on your music. But over-using loops gets "boring". You hear the same thing over and over again. You need variations, no matter how minute it is in each section of your song. Listen to a real drummer play a song, any song.

2. Try not to over-quantize. In fact, I hardly quantize my drum sequences. Quantization is necessary for some parts when you need split second accurate timing. But over-quantization makes a sequence mechanical - since no real drummer plays to split millisecond accuracy anyway. The slightly off split second timing actually adds realism. To do that, you need to keep practicing on a keyboard or trigger pads, depending on your controller (forget the mouse). Like any drummers, get the drumming rudiments right on the controller. And think like a drummer. Remember a human drummer has 2 hands and 2 feet - not 4 hands. So hitting a snare, hi-hats and cymbals all at the same time in one hit is humanly impossible (the biggest mistake - I hear this all the time in pop songs and can straight away tell it's sequenced no matter how realistic the drum sounds). It's only possible if one plays the hi-hat by opening and closing with the pedal along without hitting - but that produces a distinct and different sound from hitting. Think like a drummer, and play like a drummer.

3. Toontracks offers some really good midi sequences recorded by real drummers using real e-drum triggers that's specific to their drum libraries. This will give you the most realistic sequences. Then you can edit parts of it to suit your music. There's a caveat to using pre-sequenced midi - even though it's realistic, it can be over-used; worse, same sequences used by different people in different songs (sometimes by the same composer in different songs - people can tell straight away!). So I always edit them.

4. Mixing with the rest of the track is also important. There's a problem with using different sample sets for different instruments - they are all sampled in different environments, different studios etc, some with ambience, some without etc. If you don't mix properly and get them all fit into one recording environment, you get rojak with parts sounding out of place (like cut and paste music). In this case, you need to think like a sound engineer, not a musician. You don't need to be a pro - you do need to know the basics. Then if you are serious about your music, send it to the pros for mastering.

And with any sampling - nothing will beat the real thing. So recording real drums is still the best. That's no longer my area so can't comment on it...Will leave that with the sound engineers.

My 2 cents on making drum sounds less "boring".

 

[kongwee]

Somebody simply cannot read the sentence: In average $350 for all midis and $550 for all live recording for a demo. If you mean demo is only drums, I have nothing to say.

 

[blueprintstudios]

Should have just stuck with saying nothing because average all instrument demo now costs $150-$300 and all midi works are insignificant cos TS does his own DIY so Nobody is talking about recording all except you, the biggest one.gd job embarrassing yourself again heh.


To subtract on what cheez added on , before I continue, this is only if you totally understand the part cheez has covered because that's a bit involving a higher learning curve and it's veering to mixing side -

1. as long as it's a multisample, one of the methods I use is Drumagog + recording my own multi snare sample. that way you can tune the drums the way you like and trigger away. but then it still boils down to your recording technique for it. but toontrack's stuff is decent.

2. this one I would only agree with 30% , because consumer hearing (the one you're trying to impress and to buy your music) doesn't care what preamp you used etc. I've recorded stuff with an old zoom H4 and it went on radio and irony is people were impressed while I was disgusted with what I used myself. but hey, who cares as long as people like it. because spot on quantizing = robot, and +/- a few miliseconds = human, consumers are not going to be able to tell. however, to add realism in e-triggers which most users tend to overlook is velocity. as lazy people just wack it all up max at midi volume 127. every detail counts.

3. going with the flow.

4. as this covers on mixing I don't want to talk about it, except for this line : the common method (at least mine) used is to record real drums + triggers then mix both realdrums and e-triggers to have best of both worlds. so the end result sound will still depend on recording/mixing>gear/samples used.

 

[kongwee]

You are the one start with recording comment right after I reply to panicnation.

 

[blueprintstudios]

and that's your best comeback ? What a lonely man. Heh.

 

[panicnation]

Hi everyone, thank you all for the informative responses and apologies for my late reply.

As cheez mentioned, I should make my question more specific. In summary, my issue is more to do with songwriting, rather than recording or audio-engineering.

By way of background, I've been operating as a bedroom song-writer for a couple of years. I started using GB about 2 years ago to record and flesh out my song ideas. Lately I've found that approach very restrictive, largely due to the limited capabilities of drum loops on GB. It's fine for laying down instruments + vox over it, but it's monotony and inflexibility severely hinders my ability to add dynamics to my compositions.

I've tried creating my own drum patterns on GB, but I've found that there is a lag (latency?) using keyboard to play the notes, and I do not have my own drum trigger pads. I've tried using Ableton Live, but the hassle of programming beats is more hassle than I'm willing to put in and also kills my creativity.

I'm not willing to hire a drummer to record just yet, as I want to write the drum parts myself first, although I appreciate the info.

I've come across EZ Drummer (and someone above has recommended it). Will this be my best bet? Also, I'm considering getting a yamaha dd65 to map my ez drummer. Is this a viable/feasible option?

Once again, thanks everyone for your helpful responses.

 

[kongwee]

If you want better midi editing, Logic Pro will be the next to learn. 10 gig of sample instrument. Able to import GB project. Now only US$200 for download version. Of cos, you can buy EZ drummer that come with hundreds of midi loop beside the samples.

 

[blueprintstudios]

panicnation :

Songwriting with midi drums on DAW - give this a trial first http://www.reaper.fm/aboutmidi.php $60USD.
the rest of the related drum vst to go along with it can be found here http://www.google.com.sg/search?q=reaper+drum+machine

latency issues - http://www.futureproducers.com/foru...-software/asio4all-what-can-i-use-mac-251038/

Drum programming - keyboard to play midi notes = uses fingers. drum trigger pads = uses fingers OR using your planned yamaha dd65 with drumsticks. then I hope you're better drummer than you are with your fingers. I'm using a $30 Creative Prodikeys midi controller via PS/2 port on my computer heh. competes/beats most $50+onwards midi controllers out there. latency no issues.

your best bet however depends on how much you wanna spend, because remember you're spending for "ease/efficiency/comfort in sync with your creativity" not "for best sound quality etc" so no point spending hundreds of dollars to cover on better sound when you haven't nailed your latency/basic necessity issues.

 

[kongwee]

As an user for Reaper. I suggest use it as a secondary DAW with enough third-party sampler on your needs for Reaper workflow.
If you go Reaper with EZ drummer that you suggest, it is about S$260 at least. What about you piano, bass, strings,synth,guitar....etc. You can't use GB instrument in Reaper. Compare to Logic Pro 9 download version ~S$280. At least you can tweet latency in Logic Pro(also in other DAW too) while there is no much things you can do in GB.

What can you do with Logic Pro, my example that use Logic Pro sample exclusively for arrangement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2bDpr04ugI&list=UUT1G01QrO9NjzIheTgbGS_Q&index=6&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRDQuAdMQ-w&list=UUT1G01QrO9NjzIheTgbGS_Q&index=13&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsOKZ5Yu4Qc&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSXSlRpd6ag&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Note that it was Logic Pro 8 I used to make them as they cost S$998 at that time.

 

[Cheez]

Panicnation, what genre of songs do you write for? What other sounds do you use other than drums?

And also forgot to ask - what exactly is your budget? If you are a drum player, then a dd65 may help - and that's not exactly "budget".

As blueprinstudios said, solve the latency issue first. You shouldn't be having it. What controller are you using and what is your set up like?

Also, tools are just tools. But from the perspective of a songwriter/composer/musician, the right tools also increases creativity. Eg. softsamplers are not made the same. There are lots of programming that goes into them and it can greatly increase workflow so you can concentrate on the important thing (ie writing music) instead of fiddling around with programming, tweaking, editing etc. I use to edit my composition note by note after sequencing. Takes me hours to get a small section to where I want. Now, I spent 1/10th of the time I used to spend fiddling around with the right tools and I can focus on creativity, orchestrations, getting the right arrangements etc. Sometimes, you get what you pay for. You don't have to spend a lot. Sometimes the most expensive stuff isn't always the best, and the cheapest is not always the worst. But generally speaking, you do get what you pay for.

My first strings set was Peter Siedlaczek's Advanced Orchestra. That was like the father of sampling - really advance in the 90s (using Gigasampler). One string section sequence takes me quite a bit of editing, even though the programming was already pretty good in those days (with key-switching etc). Now I use Kirk Hunter. I spend less time focusing on getting programming/sequencing right and on how the music sound. Now...I would LOVE to use LA Scoring Strings - probably increase my workflow many more times. But do I want to choke up $999? No way! But I don't want to use a $49 string sample either that will in the end waste more time and limit my creativity, cannot be expanded etc. So I opted for the middle - Kirk Hunter.

So invest wisely on what you need.

 

[panicnation]

I write mostly pop/rock songs, but I try to experiment as much as possible with different sounds/instruments/arrangements, etc. For some (poorly recorded) samples you can take a listen at http://www.myspace.com/marxy. I record mainly to compose and flesh out song ideas and then send them to my bandmates for rehearsal.

My main instruments are: guitar, bass, drums, vox and keys/organ sounds. Looking at including horns or string elements in the future.

My current gear:
1 x electric guitar
1 x electric bass
1 x 15w guitar amp
1 x focusrite saffire pro 14
1 x koss monitor headphones
1 x sm58
1 x m-audio torq
2 x bmb karaoke mic (lol)
Garageband, Ableton, Reaper

WTB:
1 x korg microkey
1 x dd65

I also have a microkorg XL and some acoustic guitars which belong to my bandmates, and are at my disposal.

I run all of this through an old imac with way too little ram (1gb?). I have a macbook with better specs but it doesn't have firewire to run my saffire pro 14

At the moment I have a stable job and a decent disposable income, but as mentioned above, my main intention is to record basic song compositions so I'm not really willing to shell out 5 digit numbers on my gear.

 

[kongwee]

You should test your latency using Reaper or Ableton on your old iMac. Macbook bulit in sound card has a latency of 12ms that nothing you can do. Is your iMac is white plastic or aluminum type. If aluminum type then upgrade ram. If white plastic type consider buying a new one. If you are really thinking to add key,string and horn using sample. Consider buy a new iMac. Like Ezdrummer, third-party string,key and horn sampler can tax a lot of CPU, RAM and HD.

 

[Cheez]

Yes, 1GB is straining it. Play around with the buffer settings.

From your setup and listening to your mp3s, you are obviously guitar-based songwriter. At first I was about to suggest Native Instruments Komplete 8 (the best for composers using keyboards - a very comprehensive palette of bread-and-butter sounds including drums + effects), but now I would suggest just getting EZdrummer and whatever keyboard you have.

You mention 5-digits - now, is that your limit? Because with 4 digits, you can have a more-than-decent setup.