how to solo and improvise
- Thread starter hofner
- Start date
Ablue - please read my earlier posts further up this thread, especially the one that begins "This is very good advice..." you'll see that in many respects I couldn't agree more with many of your points about more advanced improvisational aspects.
Improvisation, be it advanced or not, will have to be played by ear. Knowing the scales allows the person to access what the wants to play instantaneously.
However, what we started out trying to address was a plea for help in some foundational knowledge in to how to apply scales over chords. Note I qualify my statements very clearly with the method being *one* way of approaching improvisation, and I try to give steps as practically useful as possible, and as simple as possible so somebody can get started right away.
Precisely and I'm responding to the fundamental plea. Someone came in here to ask about 'how to solo and improvise'. You conceded yourself that it was many years of effort. Simply put there's no simple way around. You got to get yourself a good ear and a sharp sense of rhythm to be genuinely improvising.
Look at Allan Holdsworth - have you checked out his training DVD? He talks about 10 scales that he uses. Joe Pass - on his 'Jazz Lines' DVD - scales and arpeggios over chords and things such as 'what to play over an altered dominant chord'. Frank Gambale - scales, modes, etc. John McLaughlin on his latest "how I do it" DVD covers scales and modes very extensively.
The 10 scales that Holdsworth talked about might be worthless to someone asking 'how to solo and improvise' over a rock/pop type progression. It is for the advanced player already very good with diatonic harmony. Anyway holdsworth can pre-hear any of those scales and it doesn't matter whether he calls something lydian-dominant or altered dominant. The names make sense when you look at the chords played and you have to know what scale degrees are being altered regardless of whether you know the scale name or not! Names are what you put a label to a particular sound, in this case the sound is the scale. Whether you know the name or not, the sound is the main issue here.
I can't believe that Pat Metheny got to where he is today without learning scales and modes and to say something like "scales with 'fancy' names is a way to make music academic as well as make money from selling books etc. " is bordering on irresponsible in that it is likely to turn some beginners away from learning these necessities in favour of your more esoteric and difficult suggestions.
All I said was to learn by ear and it doesn't matter what genre. As for the jazz context I was replying to you. Modes is esoteric, diatonic harmony isn't. Learn the diatonic stuff first! It is more irresponsible to pile someone who hasn't learnt diatonic harmony well with more knowledge like modes! Metheny got to where he is by transcribing every damn thing. He also knew the scales. Without transcribing, he won't be where he is.
Hofner, if you are reading this, take our ur favourite songs and solos and start transcribing. Ignore the 'what this and that is called' for a while. Develop a good ear and sense of rhythm by transcribing. When you have this, the modes will make sense from an aural standpoint. Understanding any scale in theory is useless unless you know it by being able to hear it. There is no short cut, sorry!
So now what do you recommend to Hofner of practical value that he can use right away to play a solo to "Knockin' on Heaven's Door"? Do you advocate that he try to hear all the individual tones as extensions to the underlying chordal harmony as it passes? For a beginner, that's simply too difficult. Seriously - I'm asking you - please tell us what it is he should do, if it isn't learning scales and modes in context against a chord. I'd really like to know as well.
I had hofner's post in mind when I posted this, but it may have seemed as a post to rebuke your suggestions. I apologise if this is the case. Most of the time people want things 'right away'. That's not possible. It's like saying I want to speak Russian now. Hofner asked a genuine question and to learn scales and noodle around and find something that 'fits' is not going to help him long term.
True understanding comes from being able to hear, and that can be achieved by dsiciplined transcribing which is a good habit for anyone to have! Transcribing is the very basic thing when learning improv. How did u learn a language? By mimicking. Did you worry about grammer as a kid? There are many 4 year olds who can speak pretty well regardless of whether they know grammer or not.
Scales helps to develope fretboard logic and technique and in a sense theory is like grammer. But not knowing it doens't mean one can't speak correctly and accurately. If you know both its a bloody bonus! But knowing it intuitively is more important for someone learning music and the best way for this to happen is to transcribe and forgot theory for a good part. I believe this is what Dhalif means when he says just play from your 'heart'.
For kids, strangely they can assimilate information differently from adults. Many kids can develop perfect pitch simply by running through scales daily. As teens or adults this ability diminishes greatly as many studies have shown. The fundamental difference is an adult's motivation to learn is driven by logic. Hence my suggestion of transcribing and improving one's sense of relative pitch.
Vernplum, I know you mean well and I do too. I'm not trying to rebuke you and I should have made known some of my points earlier. I just hope that Hofner understands somethings can't be gotten 'right now'. I agree with you that there's a faster way. However, the faster way means having a lack of understanding from an aural stand point which is not the goal in 'how to solo and improvise'. Anyway I feel its a great discussion, keep it going.
Improvisation, be it advanced or not, will have to be played by ear. Knowing the scales allows the person to access what the wants to play instantaneously.
However, what we started out trying to address was a plea for help in some foundational knowledge in to how to apply scales over chords. Note I qualify my statements very clearly with the method being *one* way of approaching improvisation, and I try to give steps as practically useful as possible, and as simple as possible so somebody can get started right away.
Precisely and I'm responding to the fundamental plea. Someone came in here to ask about 'how to solo and improvise'. You conceded yourself that it was many years of effort. Simply put there's no simple way around. You got to get yourself a good ear and a sharp sense of rhythm to be genuinely improvising.
Look at Allan Holdsworth - have you checked out his training DVD? He talks about 10 scales that he uses. Joe Pass - on his 'Jazz Lines' DVD - scales and arpeggios over chords and things such as 'what to play over an altered dominant chord'. Frank Gambale - scales, modes, etc. John McLaughlin on his latest "how I do it" DVD covers scales and modes very extensively.
The 10 scales that Holdsworth talked about might be worthless to someone asking 'how to solo and improvise' over a rock/pop type progression. It is for the advanced player already very good with diatonic harmony. Anyway holdsworth can pre-hear any of those scales and it doesn't matter whether he calls something lydian-dominant or altered dominant. The names make sense when you look at the chords played and you have to know what scale degrees are being altered regardless of whether you know the scale name or not! Names are what you put a label to a particular sound, in this case the sound is the scale. Whether you know the name or not, the sound is the main issue here.
I can't believe that Pat Metheny got to where he is today without learning scales and modes and to say something like "scales with 'fancy' names is a way to make music academic as well as make money from selling books etc. " is bordering on irresponsible in that it is likely to turn some beginners away from learning these necessities in favour of your more esoteric and difficult suggestions.
All I said was to learn by ear and it doesn't matter what genre. As for the jazz context I was replying to you. Modes is esoteric, diatonic harmony isn't. Learn the diatonic stuff first! It is more irresponsible to pile someone who hasn't learnt diatonic harmony well with more knowledge like modes! Metheny got to where he is by transcribing every damn thing. He also knew the scales. Without transcribing, he won't be where he is.
Hofner, if you are reading this, take our ur favourite songs and solos and start transcribing. Ignore the 'what this and that is called' for a while. Develop a good ear and sense of rhythm by transcribing. When you have this, the modes will make sense from an aural standpoint. Understanding any scale in theory is useless unless you know it by being able to hear it. There is no short cut, sorry!
So now what do you recommend to Hofner of practical value that he can use right away to play a solo to "Knockin' on Heaven's Door"? Do you advocate that he try to hear all the individual tones as extensions to the underlying chordal harmony as it passes? For a beginner, that's simply too difficult. Seriously - I'm asking you - please tell us what it is he should do, if it isn't learning scales and modes in context against a chord. I'd really like to know as well.
I had hofner's post in mind when I posted this, but it may have seemed as a post to rebuke your suggestions. I apologise if this is the case. Most of the time people want things 'right away'. That's not possible. It's like saying I want to speak Russian now. Hofner asked a genuine question and to learn scales and noodle around and find something that 'fits' is not going to help him long term.
True understanding comes from being able to hear, and that can be achieved by dsiciplined transcribing which is a good habit for anyone to have! Transcribing is the very basic thing when learning improv. How did u learn a language? By mimicking. Did you worry about grammer as a kid? There are many 4 year olds who can speak pretty well regardless of whether they know grammer or not.
Scales helps to develope fretboard logic and technique and in a sense theory is like grammer. But not knowing it doens't mean one can't speak correctly and accurately. If you know both its a bloody bonus! But knowing it intuitively is more important for someone learning music and the best way for this to happen is to transcribe and forgot theory for a good part. I believe this is what Dhalif means when he says just play from your 'heart'.
For kids, strangely they can assimilate information differently from adults. Many kids can develop perfect pitch simply by running through scales daily. As teens or adults this ability diminishes greatly as many studies have shown. The fundamental difference is an adult's motivation to learn is driven by logic. Hence my suggestion of transcribing and improving one's sense of relative pitch.
Vernplum, I know you mean well and I do too. I'm not trying to rebuke you and I should have made known some of my points earlier. I just hope that Hofner understands somethings can't be gotten 'right now'. I agree with you that there's a faster way. However, the faster way means having a lack of understanding from an aural stand point which is not the goal in 'how to solo and improvise'. Anyway I feel its a great discussion, keep it going.
Elvin-Seraphim
New member
playing around
well, for startes..u could juz play arnd with the tune..firstly..u must haf a tune in ur head..then u play arnd it..be creative..and playful..it's meant to be enjoyed..u'll be surprised with wad u can come up with..and when u do..perhaps noting it down would be gd..fer referances..
well, for startes..u could juz play arnd with the tune..firstly..u must haf a tune in ur head..then u play arnd it..be creative..and playful..it's meant to be enjoyed..u'll be surprised with wad u can come up with..and when u do..perhaps noting it down would be gd..fer referances..
vernplum
New member
Ok - these posts are getting ridiculously large so I'm going to try to be succinct and I guess I won't be able to address everything. On some things we'll really have to just agree to disagree because there are so many ways to approach this subject, and at the end of the day, some ways are suitable for some people and others for other people. I'd be interested to know if any innocent bystanders monitoring this thread have opinions on what they consider of use to them and other ways that they approach improvising and soloing. 
So, the only point I'm going to debate is this one, which I think lies at the heart of the matter:
Improvisation, be it advanced or not, will have to be played by ear.
It is my belief (and I am not trying to be confrontational for the sake of it) that this is too broad a generalisation and simply cannot capture 'improvisation' in such a simplistic manner.
Now, don't get me wrong - my allegiances actually lie in the *same* camp as those of Ablue - that is, where true spontaneous improvisation (that is, music that is made up on the spot with no pre-meditation) *should*, in a purist's sense, be 'heard' in the head at the same time that it is played (or a microsecond before), but I think that there are practical limitations to this in that everydbody has to start somewhere in learning what all the sounds and pitches producable are and cannot jump from novice to expert with no training in-between (incidentally, knowing scales and modes is NOT any kind of shortcut). Close inspection of my 'this is good advice' post will hopefully cover my tracks.
I think that this (Ablue's definition) is too narrow a scope for improvisation, and frankly it surprises me that more people haven't put up their hands and said "hey - that means you're saying that what I'm doing *isn't* improv!" I think that it is totally valid for a musician without a well developed ear to be able to improvise based purely on the shapes of scales and chords under his or her fingers. If I am taught a C major scale on the first day of picking up a guitar, and I have enough creative juices within me to think "hey, these needn't be played in a strict ascending or descending order, but I could play them in a different order!" then I AM IMPROVISING and I need not necessarily be able to hear those lines in my head before they come out. Moving a step further, I can improvise by knowing the key chord tones of my target chords and know when I should land on them based purely on shapes, and so long as I stay within the scale (of which I have foreknowledge) and even if I deviate, but come back to my chord tones, then what I'm doing will sound ok. Again, I need not necessarily know what every note is going to sound like in context before it's played, but again, I would still be improvising.
Absolutely I believe this - and I'd bet (but cannot prove) that *most* improvising musicians do this to a large degree, using muscle/finger memory for a large part and a strong knowledge of the fretboard or UI of whatever instrument they play - especially for very fast passages. (P.S. Holdsworth relies heavily on a visual technique in which he 'sees' all the notes of the scale he wants to use as if they were lit up on the fingerboard.)
One thing I absolutely agree with you wholeheartedly on is the development of the ear through transcription (I used to spend hours listening to the same 10 seconds of music). This is an entirely new subject in itself, which we should devote a new thread to.
Well, I have to go to play my guitar now. I've spent more time on this forum in recent days that I have with my instrument - you can see how passionate I am about music... One thing that I've really taken away from this discourse is how much it has really made me think about what it is that I do - so thanks for the engaging replies - this is helping me move to the next level.
So, the only point I'm going to debate is this one, which I think lies at the heart of the matter:
Improvisation, be it advanced or not, will have to be played by ear.
It is my belief (and I am not trying to be confrontational for the sake of it) that this is too broad a generalisation and simply cannot capture 'improvisation' in such a simplistic manner.
Now, don't get me wrong - my allegiances actually lie in the *same* camp as those of Ablue - that is, where true spontaneous improvisation (that is, music that is made up on the spot with no pre-meditation) *should*, in a purist's sense, be 'heard' in the head at the same time that it is played (or a microsecond before), but I think that there are practical limitations to this in that everydbody has to start somewhere in learning what all the sounds and pitches producable are and cannot jump from novice to expert with no training in-between (incidentally, knowing scales and modes is NOT any kind of shortcut). Close inspection of my 'this is good advice' post will hopefully cover my tracks.
I think that this (Ablue's definition) is too narrow a scope for improvisation, and frankly it surprises me that more people haven't put up their hands and said "hey - that means you're saying that what I'm doing *isn't* improv!" I think that it is totally valid for a musician without a well developed ear to be able to improvise based purely on the shapes of scales and chords under his or her fingers. If I am taught a C major scale on the first day of picking up a guitar, and I have enough creative juices within me to think "hey, these needn't be played in a strict ascending or descending order, but I could play them in a different order!" then I AM IMPROVISING and I need not necessarily be able to hear those lines in my head before they come out. Moving a step further, I can improvise by knowing the key chord tones of my target chords and know when I should land on them based purely on shapes, and so long as I stay within the scale (of which I have foreknowledge) and even if I deviate, but come back to my chord tones, then what I'm doing will sound ok. Again, I need not necessarily know what every note is going to sound like in context before it's played, but again, I would still be improvising.
Absolutely I believe this - and I'd bet (but cannot prove) that *most* improvising musicians do this to a large degree, using muscle/finger memory for a large part and a strong knowledge of the fretboard or UI of whatever instrument they play - especially for very fast passages. (P.S. Holdsworth relies heavily on a visual technique in which he 'sees' all the notes of the scale he wants to use as if they were lit up on the fingerboard.)
One thing I absolutely agree with you wholeheartedly on is the development of the ear through transcription (I used to spend hours listening to the same 10 seconds of music). This is an entirely new subject in itself, which we should devote a new thread to.
Well, I have to go to play my guitar now. I've spent more time on this forum in recent days that I have with my instrument - you can see how passionate I am about music... One thing that I've really taken away from this discourse is how much it has really made me think about what it is that I do - so thanks for the engaging replies - this is helping me move to the next level.
Mr_KeyboardMan
New member
Wooo, this thread is very resourceful. Thanks to all those who posted here.
Just wanna share my thought ..
I think the posts is maybe a little bit difficult to churn out for hofner to start learning how to improvise ...
One advise is to start slowly one by one, step by step. Improvising is not a skill that you can learn it over night. Instead it is a lifelong learning.
One suggestion would be:
1. If you don't mind learning rock or pop impro first, then you may try to learn pentatonic or a blues scales ( you can find these info easily on the web)
2. Practise your finger by going up and down those scales to familiarise yourself.
3. Play your fav rock or pop songs. find out which key they are playing. and do the no 2 using the same key as the songs.
4. Try out different songs and see how it feels different.
5. experiment by playing the scales differently. Dont be afraid to make mistakes, just WHACK!!!
6. Hear what you are playing. And try to enjoy your playing with the music. It would be good if you have a recorder so you can hear yourselves.
7. If you feel comfortable with these scales, try to learn other techniques as well and how it is being used (there are lots of resources on the web. Just Google It)
8. Dont be afraid to use other approaches. This is only my suggestion and how I started learning improvisation.
Point to note:
Improvisation is a lifelong learning skill.
Just happened to play jazz here.
For Jazz Musician (Apply for other genres oso), each individual has their own approach and methods. Thus add CHARACTER to their improvisation.
Therefore, we can't say which approach is better. It is up to each individual to get what suited them.
Those instructional video are meant to show a musician's approach to improvisation or how they create their music, and they are not fixed rules you have to follow. I have to agree that they are Great learning resources, and you'll gain a lot of knowledge from them. But, be flexible in your learning and go at your own pace. Most importantly, ENJOY!!.
For me, when I did my improvisation, I always think in terms of SOUND and FEEL. I mean what kind of feel that I create in a song.
How do I achieve that?
EXPERIMENT and PRACTISE.
Personally I kinda agree of what dhalif said in previous post:
MUSIC IS FROM THE HEART.
Cheers
Just wanna share my thought ..
I think the posts is maybe a little bit difficult to churn out for hofner to start learning how to improvise ...
One advise is to start slowly one by one, step by step. Improvising is not a skill that you can learn it over night. Instead it is a lifelong learning.
One suggestion would be:
1. If you don't mind learning rock or pop impro first, then you may try to learn pentatonic or a blues scales ( you can find these info easily on the web)
2. Practise your finger by going up and down those scales to familiarise yourself.
3. Play your fav rock or pop songs. find out which key they are playing. and do the no 2 using the same key as the songs.
4. Try out different songs and see how it feels different.
5. experiment by playing the scales differently. Dont be afraid to make mistakes, just WHACK!!!
6. Hear what you are playing. And try to enjoy your playing with the music. It would be good if you have a recorder so you can hear yourselves.
7. If you feel comfortable with these scales, try to learn other techniques as well and how it is being used (there are lots of resources on the web. Just Google It)
8. Dont be afraid to use other approaches. This is only my suggestion and how I started learning improvisation.
Point to note:
Improvisation is a lifelong learning skill.
Just happened to play jazz here.
For Jazz Musician (Apply for other genres oso), each individual has their own approach and methods. Thus add CHARACTER to their improvisation.
Therefore, we can't say which approach is better. It is up to each individual to get what suited them.
Those instructional video are meant to show a musician's approach to improvisation or how they create their music, and they are not fixed rules you have to follow. I have to agree that they are Great learning resources, and you'll gain a lot of knowledge from them. But, be flexible in your learning and go at your own pace. Most importantly, ENJOY!!.
For me, when I did my improvisation, I always think in terms of SOUND and FEEL. I mean what kind of feel that I create in a song.
How do I achieve that?
EXPERIMENT and PRACTISE.
Personally I kinda agree of what dhalif said in previous post:
MUSIC IS FROM THE HEART.
Cheers
bluepowder
New member
hehe,
a strong arguement going here..but i think u shld combine both sides and say that u need knowledge of scales and what notes to choose and diatonic harmony whatever control(i wld rather call iit the sound of the ntoes)..u cant just play scales and u cant just listen and play something....well not if u r a beginner anyways....i think one should get knowledge first and then try for things that come only with time like feel and control etc...i would know i am in search of it myself....but its true no great player ever became great saying i dunno any scale.....and no great player became great by playing only scales with no feel or melody....
BAH...just play what u want.....
a strong arguement going here..but i think u shld combine both sides and say that u need knowledge of scales and what notes to choose and diatonic harmony whatever control(i wld rather call iit the sound of the ntoes)..u cant just play scales and u cant just listen and play something....well not if u r a beginner anyways....i think one should get knowledge first and then try for things that come only with time like feel and control etc...i would know i am in search of it myself....but its true no great player ever became great saying i dunno any scale.....and no great player became great by playing only scales with no feel or melody....
BAH...just play what u want.....
Mr_KeyboardMan
New member
ha ha ha ... agreed . +1
Elvin-Seraphim
New member
insight
man..u guys rock..these tips are exactly wad i had in mind..rock on pple..
man..u guys rock..these tips are exactly wad i had in mind..rock on pple..
guitar_phreak
New member
Wow....This thread is a perfect "Music theory, improvisation" Phd dissertation! haha
IMHO, playing with your heart w/o theory is cool... but just keep in mind, if it sounds good, most probably music theory has covered it.
And, music theory does not restrict a musician. Only the musician restricts the musician.
IMHO, playing with your heart w/o theory is cool... but just keep in mind, if it sounds good, most probably music theory has covered it.
And, music theory does not restrict a musician. Only the musician restricts the musician.
marshall_law
New member
I did not read the above post as it was too long.
For me, you want to improvise well, you got to learn the intervals well. When you improvise intervals, you can create different type of sounds. When i move in 3rds, i create a motive for me solo. Then i start off to development in 5th or other intervals. But i usually do not think about all these when i solo. Just listen to what best fits the song.
Try to add in some apreppgios. For example, G major i can play a G major arpeggios and start of a solo. Improvising require a great deal of experience. Just keep on playing and soon you'll discover more of improvisation. And play from your heart. Never think of what scale to play next or what tone you want to accompany the chords. Just play. Let it come naturally.
For me, you want to improvise well, you got to learn the intervals well. When you improvise intervals, you can create different type of sounds. When i move in 3rds, i create a motive for me solo. Then i start off to development in 5th or other intervals. But i usually do not think about all these when i solo. Just listen to what best fits the song.
Try to add in some apreppgios. For example, G major i can play a G major arpeggios and start of a solo. Improvising require a great deal of experience. Just keep on playing and soon you'll discover more of improvisation. And play from your heart. Never think of what scale to play next or what tone you want to accompany the chords. Just play. Let it come naturally.
MadWerewolfBoy
New member
don't forget, u'd also need to add some techniques on certain types of music...
for eg, blues... bending and sliding... rock, sliding and hammer-ons pull-offs... metal, some intensive arpeegio finger tapping or sweeping... some thing liddat... so tecnique is also quite important apart from all the scale knowledge and all...
for eg, blues... bending and sliding... rock, sliding and hammer-ons pull-offs... metal, some intensive arpeegio finger tapping or sweeping... some thing liddat... so tecnique is also quite important apart from all the scale knowledge and all...
guitarman78
New member
Ablue, Vernplum, Mr Keyboardman ....
I'm very impressed by your knowledge about music ....
Mind sharing with us how your practice routine is like? Like is there a particular artist you try to emulate? Or certain drills or exercises that you use to develop your musicianship?
I believe we have already established the fact that technical knowledge and musical senses both plays a part in improvisation. Technical knowledge like scale and modal theory can help to enhance and recognise tones that may seemed foreign to beginners. But ultimately, the aim of music training is to develop musical senses which is inherent to one's ability to create music. You can't expect an amatuer musician to differentiate between diatonic and non diatonic notes in a given key. Pat Metheny's ability to recognise altered notes in a given scale i believe doesn't just come in by chance does it? Hence it soul and technics should come hand in hand .... coz not everyone is gifted with the "Harmonic ear".
Personally, I dun have the gift of perfect pitch. In fact, i feel that i am quite inadequate when it comes to hearing. Hence i need to develop my musical senses very much by studying and practicing of scales and chords and applying it to songs.
And i have a very bad memory for songs ... unfortunately. I usually learn them and forget them pretty easily. But one good thing is that i can remember the princicple that makes the song works. I guess it's all about remembering how it sounds more than remember the song itself ... ya get what i mean?
I have no problems in improvising chord changes in terms of Modal interchange. I think generally if you can recognise the sounds of the modes of major scale, you can more or less land on the "right" sounding note.
When it comes to jazz, i can still handle certain standard progressions like 2,5,1 or circle of fifths or Jazzblues progression. But when it comes to certain Chord Substitution or very tense situations .... i am totally at lost!!
Firstly, the position of few completely different scales on the fretboard is not very condusive for immediate reaction to fast chord changes. It's not easy to develop a ear to hear an immediate key transposition and react it directly on the finger board. Even if you hear it ... playing it is an entirely different ballgame. Hence I am trying to play different combination of key changes on the fingerboard so that i know what to play when i hear one.
Secondly, Chord Substitution can be so drastic that it's hard to capture the direction the band or leading instrument is trying to go. Hence it hard to anticipate what to play when the changes occur. Ex: for Tritone sub ... a progression like Dmin9, G13, Cmaj ... G13 can be substitute by C#7. If i am not wrong, i can play C#mixolydian or a Dmelodic minor scale right?
Well, i admit i don't have the ears to hear in melodic minor dimension nor too drastic Substitutions and i really want to learn how to do that. What do you guys suggest?
I'm very impressed by your knowledge about music ....
Mind sharing with us how your practice routine is like? Like is there a particular artist you try to emulate? Or certain drills or exercises that you use to develop your musicianship?
I believe we have already established the fact that technical knowledge and musical senses both plays a part in improvisation. Technical knowledge like scale and modal theory can help to enhance and recognise tones that may seemed foreign to beginners. But ultimately, the aim of music training is to develop musical senses which is inherent to one's ability to create music. You can't expect an amatuer musician to differentiate between diatonic and non diatonic notes in a given key. Pat Metheny's ability to recognise altered notes in a given scale i believe doesn't just come in by chance does it? Hence it soul and technics should come hand in hand .... coz not everyone is gifted with the "Harmonic ear".
Personally, I dun have the gift of perfect pitch. In fact, i feel that i am quite inadequate when it comes to hearing. Hence i need to develop my musical senses very much by studying and practicing of scales and chords and applying it to songs.
And i have a very bad memory for songs ... unfortunately. I usually learn them and forget them pretty easily. But one good thing is that i can remember the princicple that makes the song works. I guess it's all about remembering how it sounds more than remember the song itself ... ya get what i mean?
I have no problems in improvising chord changes in terms of Modal interchange. I think generally if you can recognise the sounds of the modes of major scale, you can more or less land on the "right" sounding note.
When it comes to jazz, i can still handle certain standard progressions like 2,5,1 or circle of fifths or Jazzblues progression. But when it comes to certain Chord Substitution or very tense situations .... i am totally at lost!!
Firstly, the position of few completely different scales on the fretboard is not very condusive for immediate reaction to fast chord changes. It's not easy to develop a ear to hear an immediate key transposition and react it directly on the finger board. Even if you hear it ... playing it is an entirely different ballgame. Hence I am trying to play different combination of key changes on the fingerboard so that i know what to play when i hear one.
Secondly, Chord Substitution can be so drastic that it's hard to capture the direction the band or leading instrument is trying to go. Hence it hard to anticipate what to play when the changes occur. Ex: for Tritone sub ... a progression like Dmin9, G13, Cmaj ... G13 can be substitute by C#7. If i am not wrong, i can play C#mixolydian or a Dmelodic minor scale right?
Well, i admit i don't have the ears to hear in melodic minor dimension nor too drastic Substitutions and i really want to learn how to do that. What do you guys suggest?
Guitarman78,
C#7 is whats known as a tritone substition. In most jazz progressions, it is unlikely that you would see it only as a straight dominant chord. although it is not uncommon, rather, it would probably contain the other sweet notes, I think the b9 and #11 are most common.
If you are playing D melodic minor over it, you are theoretically playing C# altered and I think this is a very hip sound. I think mixolydian works over it if there are no other colours in the chord but I think it kind of takes away the jazz feel.
I would consider C# dominant diminished, or C# Lydian Dominant, but then these are my favourite sounds over tritone substitions.
C#7 is whats known as a tritone substition. In most jazz progressions, it is unlikely that you would see it only as a straight dominant chord. although it is not uncommon, rather, it would probably contain the other sweet notes, I think the b9 and #11 are most common.
If you are playing D melodic minor over it, you are theoretically playing C# altered and I think this is a very hip sound. I think mixolydian works over it if there are no other colours in the chord but I think it kind of takes away the jazz feel.
I would consider C# dominant diminished, or C# Lydian Dominant, but then these are my favourite sounds over tritone substitions.
When I am trying to practise improvising, especially when I am working on something that I am new with, I immerse myself in it, to acclimatise my ear to the sound of that scale in context with a progression.
I will give you an example. I have been working on both Dimnished scales, the whole half and the half whole and I have been running both scales while practising with a sequencer with a chord progression playing. This sound used to be very very alien to me but its coming along slowly. It started off extremely unmusical, just running scales but slowly I started to look for phrases and since I was also practising running the scales in different sequences, the scales got under my fingers pretty quickly.
On another point, if you were to practise, any scale, even regular major scales, pentatonics, minor scales and practise them in sequences, e.g in thirds, C,E,D,F,E,G, etc etc or in 4ths or in 6ths, a sound i really like you really start to KNOW The scale inside out. This means you can come out of ruts in your playing by coming up with licks.
Which brings me to my main point.
One way to really get a musical standpoint on a scale you are practising is to write a lick based on whatever you were working on that day. For instance, if you are struggling to learn the harmonic minor scale, well practise the scale, scale sequences, arps itself behind a min/maj7 chord AND then write a lick using the scale.
I like to write a lick a day because this makes for good practise and also to remember that we are not practising only to get better. We are practising so we become better MUSICIANS.
Play everything with HEART but make sure the BRAIN knows what going on too.
Ballance baby, ballance.
I will give you an example. I have been working on both Dimnished scales, the whole half and the half whole and I have been running both scales while practising with a sequencer with a chord progression playing. This sound used to be very very alien to me but its coming along slowly. It started off extremely unmusical, just running scales but slowly I started to look for phrases and since I was also practising running the scales in different sequences, the scales got under my fingers pretty quickly.
On another point, if you were to practise, any scale, even regular major scales, pentatonics, minor scales and practise them in sequences, e.g in thirds, C,E,D,F,E,G, etc etc or in 4ths or in 6ths, a sound i really like you really start to KNOW The scale inside out. This means you can come out of ruts in your playing by coming up with licks.
Which brings me to my main point.
One way to really get a musical standpoint on a scale you are practising is to write a lick based on whatever you were working on that day. For instance, if you are struggling to learn the harmonic minor scale, well practise the scale, scale sequences, arps itself behind a min/maj7 chord AND then write a lick using the scale.
I like to write a lick a day because this makes for good practise and also to remember that we are not practising only to get better. We are practising so we become better MUSICIANS.
Play everything with HEART but make sure the BRAIN knows what going on too.
Ballance baby, ballance.
guitarman78
New member
Hmmm ... a lick a day that sounds interesting ... i can try that. Thanks luke.
Actually when i practice scales ... i dun practice them linearly ... i play in melodic patterns. I do it in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, two note upright, three note inverse, etc. I have no prob with that.
But when it comes to very fast key changes (not just chord changes), i find myself too slow to respond. Only way i am trying to enhance my skills in this area is to play songs ... but it's very very time consuming. And i have a day job ... sigh.
I was taught (by a master) to practice key changes in as many possibilities as possible. Like F#maj to B maj ... and try to play it in one position as much as possible. This is because of the nature of the fretboard, it's not wise to create too much movement in the fingers around the fretboard unless neccesary. This will make the notes more reachable when movement is minimised.
But come to think about it ... he taught me 15 shapes and there are 12 keys .... there are 180 combinations! I dun have so much brain power to work all these out. Hence i only work out those which i figure out in Jazz Standards. Oh some of my Faves are like 4 on 6, How high the Moon, Night in Tsunisia, Misty, Polka dots and moonbeams, i thought aboout you, Fly me to the moon.
How about Chords? Actually i created a thread for chord substitutions, modal interchange, etc. But not much response .. :? You might wanna check it out. Coz i seriously want to learn more about this area of music.
Actually when i practice scales ... i dun practice them linearly ... i play in melodic patterns. I do it in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, two note upright, three note inverse, etc. I have no prob with that.
But when it comes to very fast key changes (not just chord changes), i find myself too slow to respond. Only way i am trying to enhance my skills in this area is to play songs ... but it's very very time consuming. And i have a day job ... sigh.
I was taught (by a master) to practice key changes in as many possibilities as possible. Like F#maj to B maj ... and try to play it in one position as much as possible. This is because of the nature of the fretboard, it's not wise to create too much movement in the fingers around the fretboard unless neccesary. This will make the notes more reachable when movement is minimised.
But come to think about it ... he taught me 15 shapes and there are 12 keys .... there are 180 combinations! I dun have so much brain power to work all these out. Hence i only work out those which i figure out in Jazz Standards. Oh some of my Faves are like 4 on 6, How high the Moon, Night in Tsunisia, Misty, Polka dots and moonbeams, i thought aboout you, Fly me to the moon.
How about Chords? Actually i created a thread for chord substitutions, modal interchange, etc. But not much response .. :? You might wanna check it out. Coz i seriously want to learn more about this area of music.
detroit_red
New member
Anyone know what scales Michael Shenker used when he play for UFO?
detroit_red said:
I am not the biggest Schenker phile but the few songs I have heard, I believe he favours the minor scale, minor pentatonic, major pentatonic, blues, harmonic minor and of course major scales and its modes. He uses mixolydian, dorian, phrygian.
Lots of good books on these scales and modes out there but I would also highly recommend you learn their formulas and write out the notes for yourself and then play them on your guitar. What this does is that it teaches you the neck and theory at the same time.
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