Counting groups of 3, 5, 7?

[repcom]

Hey, does anybody know how to count in groups of three, five or seven? I'm not talking about odd time signatures here - just groups of those numbers in each beat.

Like, for example, there are four beats in 4/4 time right? How do you count it if there are, say, five notes in the first beat, three notes in the second beat, five notes in the third beat, and seven notes in the fourth beat?

Sorry if I'm not being very clear - don't know how to get this across hahah

 

[hi]

hi hi you mean 3/5/7 notes in a quarter note/ crotchet? i guess... just gotta to subdivide slowly into equal parts... with a metronome from 40 bpm onwards...

if your legs play like 8 notes or 16 notes while you play in 3/5/7s per crotchet that is polyrhythms i think

slowly....

 

[ebon_five]

Subdivisions

Hey dood! If you wanna play 3 notes in one beat that would be a triplet. There are many ways of counting it, some of the most common being 1 ta ta, 1 e a or 1 trip let (each dissected word corresponding to each note). If you're playing 3 16th notes in one beat then ultimately it depends on which 16th notes you're playing.

As for 5 EVENLY spaced notes, the most effective way which i've learnt to count 5 notes is 1 e n n a.

For 7 notes, i first got used to playing them as 32nd notes i.e if you take the normal 16th note:

1 e n a

I accent "1" and play the remaining notes as 32nd notes. E, N and A "contain" 2 notes each (total 6). That plus the accented note gives you 7 notes in a beat. Then slowly but surely i evened out the spacing between each the notes to get 7 EVEN spaced notes in a beat. It's hard to do at really slow tempos.

I know it's a mouthful but honestly it's really hard to play such odd numbers in a beat coz you need to space them out evenly, which means you need to count them evenly. It's just plain tough. Take your time with it and once you get it, you get it for life.

 

[repcom]

Hahah thanks guys.

I realised that groups of threes were counted as triplets after I posted it.

Anyway, talking about 32nd notes... do you count them or do you just play doubles while counting in 16th notes? And if you do count them, how?

 

[ebon_five]

32nd notes

For me I just count in 16ths if I'm playing a stream of 32nd notes using double strokes. If I'm using single strokes I usually count in 8ths (either 1 N 2 N or 1 2 3 4).

 

[repcom]

Ah okay. Thanks.

 

[blurred]

hey ebon thats some gd advice u gave on the grp's

 

[alvinthedrummer]

There are a few ways to play odd numbers in 4/4 context. Fitting them in a crotchet is the easiest form. The hardest is when you start crossing the bars with these numbers....playing odd numbers over even numbers.....being able to resolve them anytime you want etc. Metric super-imposition is another interesting (but difficult) form too....its really hard to explain in this manner. Find a teacher or consult a trained drummer/musician face to face is the best. That is the only way you can get the basic concept right.

 

[ebon_five]

Oh you said it alvin! Metric modulations and all those rhythmic illusions are really tough to get. You have to train yourself to actually hear the groupings before you can play them comfortably. 16th note groupings are pretty tough since they whizz by pretty quickly. I "cheat" by using stickings haahahaha!

However i do find one really effective way to approach such notational displacement (if you will) is to write them out. Add the appropriate accents and just read and play. The great thing is that all odd stickings eventually work out to a certain pattern that loops over and over again. Once you find that you save quite a bit of work (and many a headache). You need to be able to read them notes well though...

So far the "easiest" way i've managed to handle odd groupings over bars is to subdivide the 8th notes into groups, count out the groups and just play. It works really well actually!

 

[alvinthedrummer]

Hi ebon_five, I don't see stickings as cheating. Its just a system that you worked out to help you play (provided these stickings are what you truly want to hear played).

You're right about writing patterns down. When there is visual, it helps you to remember better too. And, please, please, please....do learn to read!!! The advantages are limitless! Tks ebon on this one!

I do not get what you mean by 8 note groupings though....and like I said, these settings are really not appropriate to discuss these things in depth....

16th note groupings are mostly what I play....I think its not a speed problem...its just a matter of getting use to thats all. I believe everyone should be able to do it if they can understand the concept clearly.

Also, I left something out previously.....there are 3 layer modulations too. What you've mentioned is only 2 layers. Maybe I can demo this when I do the band workshop with the other teachers. Its really interesting...but really ripped my hair off when I first learnt them....haha

 

[ebon_five]

Hahaha yeah man it's hard to explain concepts over a forum. Wow 3 layer modulations?? I knew it! To be a freaking drummer you need to have the analytical mind of a bloody rocket scientist hahahahaha!

Man I have to see this... This modulation stuff is pretty damn interesting. Now all I need to do is actually think about using it ahhahahaah! Right now i'm a really big fan of accents. Simple, effective way of getting odd sounding fills within a 4/4 time signature. Throws people off. It's fun until it's done to you ahhaahahahhah!

Yeah guys! LEARN TO READ!! My god the amount of work you can do and time you can save if you know how to read! It's not hard at all. Just takes time to get used to it. Once I learnt how to read, I learnt a jazz song in 2 minutes, a day before I was supposed to play it.

 

[alvinthedrummer]

Haha....its really interesting...its basically playing odd + odd over even numbers....

Actually, the hard part is to play them in a way where it sits naturally in a musical phrase. That means, use it so that it doesn't sound too 'odd'. Vinnie C is the King with this.....

 

[BebopIggy]

Yeah guys! LEARN TO READ!! My god the amount of work you can do and time you can save if you know how to read! It's not hard at all. Just takes time to get used to it. Once I learnt how to read, I learnt a jazz song in 2 minutes, a day before I was supposed to play it.

Yah man, everyone should learn how to read! Then you will know what the other musicians are talking about, unless you are like Buddy Rich, who has superb memory.