Bass not cutting through..

[Resetti]

after playing with a 2 guitar configuration (one lead and one rhyrhm) and 1 guitar configutation (only 1 guitar) I prefer the 1 guitar config, coz then there is more room for the bass to move.

for EQ, I generally cut the bass a little, leave the treble untouched, and boost the upper mids.

also, I find that playing with a higher tension string helps. they are not as floppy and I find them more sensitive to the touch.

even so, with 1 guitar configuration, when my guitarist stomps on the heavy distortion pedal that has lots of heavy bass, I'll get drowned out..... but when he plays clean tones or overdrive parts, generally a mid-boost on your bass instrument will help it cut through.

 

[Bryandt]

for example, the studio at scape youth park has 2 tube head+cab guitar rigs, and a pathetic ampeg combo for the bass. is that some kind of joke? needless to say it was the first and last time i jammed there.

Yea I get what you mean. It's sad enough we bassist don't get much credit, but most places give the bassist lower end equipment to start with compared to the guitars. sigh

Btw, where do you frequently jam at?

 

[dumbcube]

lester

Hey Lester, yeap understood. Maybe because our interpretation of cutting though is different. My idea of cutting through is hearing a defined sound from the bass instrument, including the tonal character of the pickups type, pickup placement, wooden quality, etc etc. Not just the thunderous booming of the bass frequencies, which usually can be heard and especially, felt.

I play mostly in church and I have my own jamming trio, and I have my own likes and dislikes of various band configs.

I usually play in a trio: drum bass e-guit, which gives me alot of space for maneouvre, BUT I especially hate the empty feel when the guitar goes into solo. However, this emptiness also drove me to experiment with the guitar, and import techniques, effects and concepts of chords over to bass to fill up the available spaces during solos.

I do play in the typical drum, bass, eguit, acoustic guit, keyboard configuration in church occassionally, and while I do like how we can sound, I am especially peeved when some players thread into the sonic space of other instruments, notably left hand of keyboardists versus bass. Also, in worship music, the coordination of more instruments means more work and time required so I guess there's a tradeoff.

If I have a choice, and I have disciplined players, I'd love to try a configuration of:

1. Drum
2. Bass
3. 3 x E-Guitarists
4. 2 x Keyboardists
5. 2 x Acoustic Guitarists

It's always interesting when I see how Hillsongs, Jesus Culture and the other contemporary Christian bands coordinate such sessions and pull it off awesomely.

 

[Bryandt]

hi all,

do you know of any jamming studios around with at least decent bass equipments?

thanks alot. :-D

 

[alanchia]

It's always interesting when I see how Hillsongs, Jesus Culture and the other contemporary Christian bands coordinate such sessions and pull it off awesomely.

That's what music arrangement is all about. And of course good sound engineers.

 

[dumbcube]

F

And annointing.

 

[lester_music]

well..if you have sensitive and experience musician,,,guess its not a problem.....it will happen naturally..

sensitive means knowing when and what to play..think as a band, not as an individual....not many think like that..thats why you can find many messy bands....even in churches....been to a church near East Coast...listening to their band is like going to the wet market...so mess up...

guess churches need to look for gifted musician...not just simply roped in anyone to play....not a good impression.......

 

[dumbcube]

Church

That's the difference between secular and church music. While we always want skilled players in a secular band, having the most talented people in a worship band may not always be the best thing to do: people may have the wrong motives for playing, or are playing to show off. We are not looking for superstars. Rather, we looking for people with the heart to worship.

We're not looking to leave a good impression in people, we are looking to praise and worship our God through songs and music. Bottomline is the star is our God, not us.

Talking about sensitivity, we are usually led by the worship leader, who by means visible and not, guides the musicians through the dynamics in the song. I play in a secular band too, which usually involves rehearsing a song over and over in the same way. Playing in a worship band is different: based on the climate of worship, we may need to change our way of playing right on the spot. This requires us to be sensitive to the leading of the Spirit (pardon me for using religious jargons, I can't find any other way to express this point), and thus explains my above point of needing people with the heart to worship.

While we are not looking for showmanship, we must also carefully balance people that can distract the general congregation with lack of proficiency in music. Sometimes that is not easy, because we may not always have the most 'kilat' people to serve from amongst our congregation. This is especially evident in small churches. That's when we have to balance skill vs heart and pray for providence of musicians over time.

Pardon me if my 'church' talk bothers you because I understand how some people find such irritating. Just want to clarify our way or working and hope you guys have a better understanding of how we work! =)

 

[evident]

if in a mix, the bass is to the point of being heard...it's too loud. The point of playing the bass is not to be heard, but to be felt and to support (carry) the lead instruments.

The only part when you should be heard is if you're doing a solo. Otherwise, if you're fighting with the other instruments to be louder than them, people are not going to like it because when basses get to loud, it gets irritating cuz we can feel it in our bodies. especially if the subs are aimed directly at us.

 

[lester_music]

agree with evident....

i have the chance to work with some real professional sound engineers and it really helps in understanding sound more...

talk to them if you have the chance...they will tell you alot about sound...

one thing musician really need to know is sound engineering which is another big topic........

it will helps you in understanding why some sounds are cut...and so on...

 

[dumbcube]

Heard VS Felt

I disagree with Evident on bass should not be heard.

When the bass cannot be heard, it usually means that some other instrument has invaded into the territory of the instrument. The bass should ALWAYS be heard. The bass is not necessarily always the low end boom that causes your heart to skip a few times.

There are many songs that has running bass lines, and if your bass is not heard, your song loses an important part of it's character.

Being a support instrument doesn't mean it shouldn't be heard. It just means that it shouldn't be overtly fanciful (except, as most pointly out, during bass solos). The same logic applies for ALL instruments, in fact.

 

[lester_music]

i think what evident meant is as long as can be felt.....its fine...

the reason why some heard it so consciously is either you are are bass player or really love bass

or else,

if you ask any man in the street who listen to music....they will not know what the bass player is playing...they will only sense or felt its there....most of the time their focus is on the vocal and perhaps guitar or piano or other instrument solos....or some main theme...

you have to put yourselves in a layman's ears...after all music is meant for them....

 

[b33r]

if in a mix, the bass is to the point of being heard...it's too loud. The point of playing the bass is not to be heard, but to be felt and to support (carry) the lead instruments.

The only part when you should be heard is if you're doing a solo. Otherwise, if you're fighting with the other instruments to be louder than them, people are not going to like it because when basses get to loud, it gets irritating cuz we can feel it in our bodies. especially if the subs are aimed directly at us.

so, how about we take a song, remove the bass and replace it with a low frequency hum? would that sound the same? oh wait, you can't tell, because just "feeling" the bass is fine. also, by your logic, we might as well replace the bassist with a guy with a big bass drum so we can feel the beat when he hits it. huzzah, timing!

@the statement in bold, the instruments should NOT be fighting to be louder.

in a mix, each instrument should have their own distinct character and sound, so that they can be distinguished from each other. if, for example, a guitarist boosts his lows, his sound clashes with the bass, creating a messy mix and possibly rendering both the guitar and bass inaudible in a whole jumble of noise.


and to add on to the busy bassline thing dumbcube mentioned, just take a look at some of The Beatles songs. see if Twist and Shout is still the same without Paul McCartney.

 

[exin]

you have to put yourselves in a layman's ears...after all music is meant for them....

i think i've got to strongly disagree on that.

i think music is not only meant for the layman but also for musicians themselves. Sorry i had to stick it in because music means something to me. =)

 

[lester_music]

Exin: haha..i guess my words are confusing sometimes...

actually what i meant is majority of the listener are non-musician who don't bother to really listen to the bass...

 

[b33r]

i'll agree that most listeners don't appreciate the bass in music, often because it is hard to hear. take tv/radio for example. unless you've got a good subwoofer or turn up the volume, it's usually hard to hear the bass. similarly, most earphones don't have good bass response. *cough*stock ipod earphones*cough* lack of exposure to the sound of the bass guitar leads to the common "wtf is that guy with the weird 4-string guitar?" thing.

still, that doesn't mean bass doesn't have to be heard.

 

[lordie]

i think what evident meant is as long as can be felt.....its fine...

the reason why some heard it so consciously is either you are are bass player or really love bass

or else,

if you ask any man in the street who listen to music....they will not know what the bass player is playing...they will only sense or felt its there....most of the time their focus is on the vocal and perhaps guitar or piano or other instrument solos....or some main theme...

you have to put yourselves in a layman's ears...after all music is meant for them....

yup agree thats the layman point of view, which usually listen to elevator music.

for a real music fan, every nuances of instrument should be heard with clarity

 

[lester_music]

haha....once I ask my colleague to see us go jamming and I was playing bass.....

and

he ask me "what r u playing..like no sound from your guitar one leh"

then I show him....there.....dom Dom Dom Dom dom dom dom......hahaha.....

anyway..i figure why there are disagreement over here.... think about the different recording....all have different volume of bass...if you listen to Iron Maiden or most uncompressed Jazz recording...bass is sure very loud and clear...but if u listen some punk rock...the guitar tends to be louder then the bass.....so I think its depends on the genre and what the producer and sound engineer wants....no point disagreeing here and there...


and more importantly.....your sound system.....hahhaa..

by nature, meaning the biological character of our ears, they are less sensitive to low freq than highs....so we were response naturally to high freq....a dog in fact can hear much lower than out human ears...hahahhaa

 

[lordie]

if in a mix, the bass is to the point of being heard...it's too loud. The point of playing the bass is not to be heard, but to be felt and to support (carry) the lead instruments.

The only part when you should be heard is if you're doing a solo. Otherwise, if you're fighting with the other instruments to be louder than them, people are not going to like it because when basses get to loud, it gets irritating cuz we can feel it in our bodies. especially if the subs are aimed directly at us.

and a drummer that dun wanna hear the bass in the mix, thats something new to me.

bass should always cut thru the mix, and all times all the time. its like a drummer with a muted kick drum. u can hear th snare and the crash and nothing else.

 

[lordie]

haha....once I ask my colleague to see us go jamming and I was playing bass.....

and

he ask me "what r u playing..like no sound from your guitar one leh"

then I show him....there.....dom Dom Dom Dom dom dom dom......hahaha.....

anyway..i figure why there are disagreement over here.... think about the different recording....all have different volume of bass...if you listen to Iron Maiden or most uncompressed Jazz recording...bass is sure very loud and clear...but if u listen some punk rock...the guitar tends to be louder then the bass.....so I think its depends on the genre and what the producer and sound engineer wants....no point disagreeing here and there...


and more importantly.....your sound system.....hahhaa..

by nature, meaning the biological character of our ears, they are less sensitive to low freq than highs....so we were response naturally to high freq....a dog in fact can hear much lower than out human ears...hahahhaa

well i play in a few metal bands ranging from goth dark metal covering nightwish to brutal death grind

just done recording over the weekend at studio47 for my band latest EP. Nizam the sound engineer knows what he is doing and i have no issue in cutting thru the mix with 2 guitars ripping it out on 1 step down with a drummer that hits like his having an orgasm.

and nizam was pushing me to play it hard with a pick to have that heavy picking attack on the notes.

as per your posting the guitar is not louder than the notes, the rock metal guitards love to scooped their mids and leave very little sonic real estate for other instrument. thats where the challenge comes in for bassist to carve out a tone that cut thru the mix.

and to add a very competent FOH will know how to balance all instrument during a live gig.