Bass not cutting through..

[Bryandt]

Hi Fellow Bassists,

What are the ways for the Bass to cut through between the mix during both live and jamming sessions??

I have been jamming around in various studios with my friends and it seems that the bass has a hard time getting heard, even when the volume is maxed out on the amplifier and bass.

It's only when I pluck hard (on max amp volume) will the bass be heard. However it will either be muffled or rattling most of the time.

Is it due to the amp, others playing too loud or my technique?

On days when I visit the Esplanade outdoor stage to appreciate the bands playing live, the bassist is almost drowned out by the other instruments as well. Sometimes I can't hear the bass at all.

Why is this so? Is it the mixing or something else?

Help much appreciated. Thanks everyone.

Cheers,
DT

 

[kanites]

use a bass amp tat is 3 times the wattage of the guitar amp

 

[cloud]

Hi Fellow Bassists,
Is it due to the amp, others playing too loud or my technique?

Well if u can't hear urself in all the studios, then its probably not the amp.
Between blaming guitarist and drummers or ur technique....
blame the guitarist and drummer! Its always their fault!

On a more serious note though, what kind of bass and EQ settings do you use?

 

[cheyen]

get a markbass amp!
it cuts !

 

[Bryandt]

On a more serious note though, what kind of bass and EQ settings do you use?

Hey bro,

Yea I can't hear myself in most of the studios, better in some but not all that good either. Lol. Even on Ampeg amps.

So far I've been using Jazz Basses. My main bass is an EBMM Stingray but I haven't brought it out to the studios yet.

For EQ, I tend to cut the treble a little and boost both the mids and bass. I've tried other settings or without the EQ of course, but the results are pretty much the same. :???:

 

[cloud]

If you find you're lacking power, try bringing ur EBMM out to one of ur jamming sessions one day. With that sort of onboard preamp you shouldn't have a problem.
If u can't hear urself with ur EBMM either, double check your technique. Plucking at different areas can have very different effects on your sound.

EQ wise, maybe try noting down the exact frequencies you are boosting?
I don't know what kind of EQ you have though. Amp's EQ?

Balance of power and clarity comes with a nice bump at around 250-300hz, which some call the low mids. Watch out for the 50hz area or below. Most amps have a hard time reproducing those frequencies, and thus you're wasting lots of the amp's power just trying to produce those sounds. Normal humans can't hear anything but a muddy boom below 50hz anyway, and most musicians are half deaf, so it'll be even worst for them :-D.

U can try boosting at higher frequencies like 400hz instead if u still can't cut through.


If it still doesn't work...trying asking a friend who is skilled in electronics to teach you how to rewire guitar amps so that they will only produce half their output even when the volume knobs at max.

P.S Don't tell your guitarist of course.

 

[shinobi]

you can listen to these guys or you can follow some real advice.

firstly, you are blasting the bass amp at max volume. you must be completely insane. most solid state bass amps begin to distort past 50% gain, so cranking it is not gonna help you get a good tone. more importantly, blasting the amp is also a sure-fire way to destroy the speakers. i can only imagine that the 'rattle' is the amp distorting, speakers being pushed beyond the limit, or both.

the bass amps in many jamming studios are inadequate. especially where the studio has tube guitar amps. tube amps are much, much louder than solid state amps at the same wattage.

at the end of the day wattage is no less important than the size of the speaker. in order to push air you need a large combined speaker surface area.

for example, the studio at scape youth park has 2 tube head+cab guitar rigs, and a pathetic ampeg combo for the bass. is that some kind of joke? needless to say it was the first and last time i jammed there.

cutting through has nothing to do with eq and the manufacturer of the amp or technique. it has to do with amp power.

there seems to be a popular misconception that low mids must be boosted for the bass to punch through. lows and low mids contribute to mud. you need highs and high mids for more presence and clarity. the bass has a very wide dynamic range, if you start cutting these frequencies you will suffer the consequences.

onboard/pedal preamps are also irrelevant. they are nothing compared to the preamp section of an amp. at any rate, most active bass users would need to pad the input impedance of the amp to prevent the amp from clipping and getting damaged.

if you get this far and still have a problem, then maybe we can start to discuss a real problem.

basically you cannot have too much lows in the mix. there is not enough room for too much low end and the mix will sound like a bloody mess. you also cannot assume that the presence of your bass in the mix is independent of other factors. it's not the 'guitarist's mix' or 'bassist's mix' or 'keyboardist's mix'. everyone in the band is in the same mix.

the problem comes when there is too much bass in the guitar, or your keyboardist is playing lower octaves. whatever tone you can come up with in the bedroom could sound like shit in a band setting.

the reason why the other instrumentalists may do such a thing is because, just like you, they practice in their bedrooms. in the bedroom, a single instrument playing alone will have alot of space. to fill this space, they crank up the bass. this makes their tone fuller. it also causes the band to sound like a wreck.

if you want to be heard in the mix it will take some cooperation with your band mates. but maybe your guitarist wants to dial in all that low end because it's part of his 'signature' (bedroom) tone. but dealing with egos is another issue.

 

[alanchia]

use this as a rough guide.

http://www.songstuff.com/articles.php?selected=53
http://www.wikirecording.org/EQ_Mixing_tips

 

[cloud]

there seems to be a popular misconception that low mids must be boosted for the bass to punch through. lows and low mids contribute to mud. you need highs and high mids for more presence and clarity. the bass has a very wide dynamic range, if you start cutting these frequencies you will suffer the consequences.

onboard/pedal preamps are also irrelevant. they are nothing compared to the preamp section of an amp. at any rate, most active bass users would need to pad the input impedance of the amp to prevent the amp from clipping and getting damaged.

That's not true. Highs and high mids (750 and 12khz or so) will give you presence and clarity, but the lower mids somewhere in between 250-450hz is whats going to give you that punch. The frequencies that turn into mud are generally lower than 250hz. Below 50hz might be range, but it certainly won't be dynamic. It would truly be mud.

As for onboards, if power and in-your-face is what he's looking for, they will definitely make a difference.

Its simple math. Lets say the preamp section of the amp gives 100000x amplification, while an onboard gives only an insignificant slight 2x.

A passive bass will thus give 1x100000 =100000 units of output
But an active bass will give 2x100000 =200000 units of output.

200000-100000 is quite a big difference.
Minus the -db pad, i would say there is still a significant difference in the kind of power, and whats more, he can now turn down the gain and still achieve the same volume, thus contributing to a better tone.

 

[alanchia]

i think what is important, at the end of the day, each instrument has to respect each other's 'frequency space'.

dont boost low freq for keyboard and electric guitar so that only bass guitar and kick drum will occupy this freq range.

likewise, dont boost bass guitar mid/high too much as this is where e.guitar and keyboard fall within.

get a person familiar with mixing (those front of house persons) to help setup the amp + eq initially for the live/jam sessions so that each band members knows how to correctly dial-in their own instrument for next sessions.

 

[funkygeos]

I have been jamming around in various studios with my friends and it seems that the bass has a hard time getting heard, even when the volume is maxed out on the amplifier and bass.
DT

Volume maxed and you can't hear the bass? I think the problem is your friends not the amp or the bass. Do a sound check and check the overall balance. Ask your friends to lower their volume, it not about who is the loudiest!

Regards.

 

[lester_music]

bass cutting thru? I not sure about that..never heard of that...unless u are doing solos....hehe


but I think the main problem is the wavelength of the lower frequencies, it can be as long as 20m...so sometimes the further you move away, the more presence the bass becomes....

The fact that you are jamming in the studio, I believe all of you are cluster together, and generally human ears are less sensitive to lower frequencies than higher ones...so we will naturally be hearing all the guitars, cymbals, snare before we even realised the bass is there.....

Try to stop playing the bass, do you notice it when it not there?I am sure you will...means it is still there but may not so heard but can be felt.. it may sound clearer outside the studio though..

another reason could be the rest of the bad are playing too loud...in a studio there is always limtation, you cannot blast...cause of the restricted acoustic(within such a small space)...

just my opinions, hope that helps..

 

[dumbcube]

Amp

My take is boost the mids and treble and reduce your bass a little. I used to be over enthusiastic with my bass frequencies in the initial days of bass-playing and neglected my trebles and mids. But after correcting my EQ blending, it did help my tone alot. Also, if you are using a Jazz bass, try to bias your pickup blend more towards the bridge PUs for more mid growl to cut through.

Otherwise, it is likely that other bandmates are playing too loud, or more commonly, if you have a keyboardist he/she is playing alot with her left hand over the bass notes.

Shinobi, I do not agree totally about EQ not being a factor in cutting through a wall of sound. While it is not the ONLY main factor, it does play a critical role. However, I do agree on your comment about not having too much bass. Sometimes we get over biased with the bass frequencies and end up a muddy boom. It does mess up a band's sound.

And lester, I do not agree with bass cutting through only during solos. Alot of contemporary music styles nowadays include complicated running basslines, and we need to cut through to highlight those parts in songs. If we do not cut through, the song loses a part of its character. My guess is, your main instrument is the guitar? =D

 

[Bryandt]

Hi all,

Damn I'm so glad for the replies. You don't know how much. Thanks everyone for the input. I've really learnt alot.

Anyway, the bass amp on max volume is rather crazy. haha. but I've tried all ways on my part (or that I know of) to solve the problem.

I've yet to school myself on EQ as I'm not really sure about it too.

I will try out all your suggestions during my next session and see how it goes.

That aside, do continue to post suggestions and possible solutions as I would love to learn more.

Cheers,
DT

 

[dumbcube]

idea

But just want to know, what kind of music do you play and what's your band's configuration?

 

[Bryandt]

Alot of contemporary music styles nowadays include complicated running basslines, and we need to cut through to highlight those parts in songs. If we do not cut through, the song loses a part of its character.

^5 man. Love this paragraph

Bassists around the world must be heard~!!

Not a biased statement by any means but the bass really does contibute so much to a song.

 

[Bryandt]

But just want to know, what kind of music do you play and what's your band's configuration?

Incubus, Radiohead, Weezer, RATM and alternative rock here and there.

The band consists of 2 guitars, 1 bass and a drummer.

 

[alanchia]

But just want to know, what kind of music do you play and what's your band's configuration?

5 to 6 man. 1 or 2 e.guitar, 2 kboard, 1 bass and 1 drummer.

 

[lester_music]

dumbcube: thks for reading my post .Actually what I meant is as a bass player in a band, you don't really need to cut thru. Because the freq of bass would not clash so easily with other instruments....bass usually has lotsa space to play with....so it don't need to cut thru to be heard clearly......unlike

a guitar, keyboard or vocal,snare drum, cymbals, those instrument need to cut thru cause too many freq clashes...

 

[Bryandt]

I don't know what kind of EQ you have though. Amp's EQ?

Yea man, i'm using the amp's EQ.

bass cutting thru? I not sure about that..never heard of that...unless u are doing solos....hehe

Lol. By cutting through I don't mean becoming a lead instrument by any means, or covering up other instruments. I just mean getting the bass heard. and significantly heard at that.

I always believe the presence of the bass in every song must be felt.