Voicings

[Indigo_blues]

hey, wanted to check with some of the 'experts' here about the rules on voicings.. I'm kinda like stuck in a rut so i thot i'd 'voice' out some of my questions here.. hope to get some tips and pointers.

My friend(whom i consider an expert keyboardist) was giving me a lesson on voicings some time back and this is the gist of what i managed to catch from him..( i think i'm a slow learner)

1. try not to repeat the bass note on your right hand voicing.. eg. if left hand plays a C bass, try not to hit the C on the right hand, hence right hand will hit G and E for a complete chord of C.

2. the fifth note of the chord eg. G in C chord is very often redundant cause it doesn't contribute as much to the tonality of the chord as the 3rd.. cause the third determines whether its a minor or major chord.

3. Try to simplify your chords to just the basics.. don't overplay too many notes for a chord.

4. try not to double up the melody note when accompanying with the right hand.

Does the above make sense to anyone here? Any comments, pointers, tips? I think this is a very interesting topic and any light shed on it from the experts here is much appreciated. Cheez?

 

[derrickkwa]

personally, i'm not a keyboard expert, but well, just my thoughts.

i think it all depends on the feel u're trying to give. sometimes if u follow those 'rules' too strictly, i think the sound might be a bit thin. sometimes u want a full, thick sound, and it will be useful to double notes. also, about playing "too many notes", i agree about not overplaying, but the definition of "too many" is very vague, based on ontext again. different notes and different number of notes give different feels (examples being many jazz chord extensions). for the 5th, well, it again depends. playing the fifth without the third gives a more open sound (as most guitarists will tell u). the fifth is also very useful as a "pedal point", as most of the time, the fifth (as well as the tonic), can be played with almost all chords in the key. the fifth also provides a good resolution at times. as for the melody, well, sometimes, keyboardists need to play melody, or at least outline the melody, to support the vocals, especially if the vocals are weaker.

essentially, i think those are some good tips to remember, but u shouldn't follow them too strictly. these tips should be applied based on context.

yep. just my two cents. =)

derrick

 

[mingguan]

Before EXPERT come in & give advise...

I thought...
as long as we don't double the 3rd, then we should be ok?

 

[Indigo_blues]

Yes i heard that one also.. never double the 3rd!! Its ok to double the root I think though. Gives a 'stronger' chord.

 

[Cheez]

1. try not to repeat the bass note on your right hand voicing.. eg. if left hand plays a C bass, try not to hit the C on the right hand, hence right hand will hit G and E for a complete chord of C.

2. the fifth note of the chord eg. G in C chord is very often redundant cause it doesn't contribute as much to the tonality of the chord as the 3rd.. cause the third determines whether its a minor or major chord.

3. Try to simplify your chords to just the basics.. don't overplay too many notes for a chord.

4. try not to double up the melody note when accompanying with the right hand.

I'm no expert, but let me attempt at this. Others like iansoh - please contribute.

Firstly, we need to know that keyboardists tend to play more running/progressive passages, although we do use block chords voicings in various situations.

Secondly, the voicings need to be taken into account not as one chord but as a group or progression of chords. What comes before and after that chord determines a lot in the composition of the notes in that chord.

Now let me attempt at your questions:

1. Not true. Doubling of the bass is quite common. If you are talking about a triad (3 notes), then of course each note should be different. However, you need to know that we can have a C chord without an E (ie something like C - C - G - C). It gives a different colour. So in a sense, a chord does not need to have all the notes in it.

2. Taking my point 1 into account, point 2 is quite obvious. You can leave out the third - gives a different colour. That leaves interpretation whether it's going to be major or minor. It's just a perfect 5th. This is used quite commonly in orchestration. It can be very creatively used - you can play in a minor key, then in the root chord leave out the 3rd suddenly (and sustain it). That makes the listener wonder if it's going to change key or not. This is just one simple example.

3. Agree in a way. The key is playing around with close and open voicings. We use them at different times. However, I sometimes do use many notes in a chord - but never a simple chord; always as a 9th, 11th or 13th etc. Then you don't double up too many notes. But even with these chords, leaving some notes out deliberately is also good - again like point 1, it will give a different colour.

4. I'm not too sure what you are asking in question 4. Can you explain a little more?

 

[mingguan]

Eh...

Off thread a bit (Indigo_blues, sorry...).

... You can leave out the third - gives a different colour. That leaves interpretation whether it's going to be major or minor. It's just a perfect 5th. This is used quite commonly in orchestration. It can be very creatively used - you can play in a minor key, then in the root chord leave out the 3rd suddenly (and sustain it). That makes the listener wonder if it's going to change key or not. This is just one simple example.

Sometime in orchestration,
they double 1st & 5th, but don't double 3rd (instead, use only ONE instrument to play the 3rd)...
Is it similar reason?

 

[Indigo_blues]

thanks cheez for ze explanations..

to clarify, i think my friend was teaching me in the context of improvisation and jazz. Yah i agree we play running notes very often. I guess my question on voicing is more skewed towards block chords.

Yes i'm familiar with the 5th chord voicings (leaving out the third).. if you leave out the third, it gives the chord an ambiguous nature, not major or minor.. useful in many contexts..

About my question on point 4, I think its in the context of piano accompanying a melody/singer.. where the piano is the main chordal instrument.. I think this is where the keys should try to avoid doubling up the singer's note as well.. is this true generally?

Any experts want to comment on jazz voicings? 9th, 13th, 2nds? inversions? stride?

 

[qfactor]

Yes, especially in jazz, you don't want to mess with the singer's notes by playing along the melody. Otherwise can get "ICY glares" from the singer (worst if female singer!!!) :lol:

QF

 

[Cheez]

Mingguan, doubling the third and leaving out the third is different. Generally speaking, we don't double the 3rd in a chord. In orchestration, things tend to be different again as the instruments are playing phrases. However, if all the instruments play tutti (ie block chords or in unison), then you have to be very careful with not doubling the 3rd.

Indigo_blues, accompanying a singer is really an art. Generally spekaing, your friend is right. Let the singer sing the melody. That does not mean we must consciously and deliberately leave out all the notes she or he sings in your chords, although you should try to especially in a block chord situation. Of course, remember that in accompanying, we don't always use block chords and the keyboard/piano is a dynamic instrument that runs. HOWEVER, there are situations when we also play the melody line TOGETHER with the singer (may not be long but a short phrase) - used in situations to bring out and emphasize the melody. Particularly in pieces that the lyrics are emotional - and we want to emphasize certain lyrical phrases.

The key to accompanying, in my opinion, is not to draw attention to the musicians. The key is to bring the WORDS of the song alive so the listener feels the words of the song. That's why the musician must know the words of the song well. When I write music to words, I always sit down with the writer and get him/her to explain why the song was written, what's the emotion that goes through each phrase and word of the song. Only then will I start to feel what he/she is trying to convey, then write the music to bring the words alive. This is about composition, which is different from just playing, but similar priniciples apply.

 

[iansoh]

The rule of not doubling the third is classical. IMO, if applied to popular music this is a great restricting factor. I'd like to second what derrickkwa said, that it depends on the feel that you want to create, especially since popular music is a great deal about self expression. if doubled thirds works for you then I say go ahead and play it. popular music breaks a lot of the rules that were set in classical music, but as long as it sounds good.

1. it is possible to have the root note in the right hand part, u don't have to omit it just because the bass player is playing it. a suggestion to make the chord more interesting is to use an inversion of the chord other than the root inversion.

2. the third is an important note - but it's not the be and end all of a chord. it is possible to play a C chord with neither the 3rd nor 5th. reharmonisation - explore the use of 7ths, 9ths, 11ths and 13ths.

3. i think i should clarify that 'basics' doesn't mean the fundamental notes of a chord. it means choosing just enough notes to give you the harmony that u want to achieve. e.g., to bring out the essence of a C13 chord with as few notes as possible, you will not need to use the 3rd, 5th, and 11th (this is just my personal opinion. every player might feel differently about this). it is not always necessary to reduce the chord, but it's a good exercise to hone your sense of harmony.

jazz voicings are not just about having fancy notes in a chord, the progression is equally important. you may have a very wide chord vocabulary but if you don't know how to fit them into a progression nicely, u'll have this 'incomplete' feeling, like the last piece of the puzzle is missing. chord substitution is very important. some fakebooks have suggested chord substitutions written in parantheses above the original chords, but i've only seen few. a good way to start experimenting on chord substitutions is to come up with alternative bass lines, and then look at the melody note and the bass note and try to fit a new chord in there. a good place to start is simply a chromatic line. and also listen to more jazz CDs and pick up ideas.

 

[Cheez]

The rule of not doubling the third is classical. IMO, if applied to popular music this is a great restricting factor.

Actually, we were all taught not to double the third in basic harmony. But remember that's the basic. Actually, doubling of the third does happen in many cases in different situations. Bach, for example, is supposed to stick to not doubling the third in his rules, but his works does it all over the place including many other "rules" that were meant to be followed. I guess the most important note not to double is the 7th due to issue with resolution. Other than that, we just have to be careful. But since I have no advanced training in harmony, I cannot offer more beyond what I've said.

As for restricting writing, I don't think so. Principles like avoid parallel 5ths and octaves are not meant to restrict - they exist to prevent different voicings from sounding independent from one another. Of course, they are not strictly followed and can be broken in situations. Same goes for many other priniciples and rules in harmony.

The problem with most compositions (whether classical, pop or whatever) is that they don't even consider these principles (because most people don't bother to think about them, or don't know about them). I've heard many who don't follow them says, "Rules are meant to be broken" when they don't even know what the rules really are what what they are meant to do. I believe we can have a piece of music that "sounds good" or a piece that sounds great. That's where I think these rules and principles come in. We can break them, but we better know why we break them. I think they apply to all music and not restrictive to one particular genre. That's why I'm a firm believer that having some form of theory will benefit all people no matter which level they are from. It doesn't have to be advanced harmony - just a little bit of theory can sometimes do wonders.

Having said that, I'm still a long way off understanding and knowing all the harmony principles. If I have the time, I must revisit them and learn more. I'm feeling rusty now and rather outdated.

So back to Indigo_blues questions, I think they are very good questions and stimulate our mind. It certainly gets me back to thinking critically again (especially of my own music) instead of just doing the same old thing. This is how we sharpen one another's skills!

Also I agree with iansoh - it's not about the chords but the progression of chords. And with regard to jazz, no matter how "haphazard" some may sound, there are still important guiding principles and rules.

 

[Indigo_blues]

thanks iansoh and cheez for the excellent replies.. i'm still chewing on them.. will post again soon.

 

[mingguan]

Reading iansoh and cheez posts always benefit me with a lot of knowledge...

 

[bongman]

i always benefit from this site...

 

[mingguan]

ops... almost left you out...
Bongman, you are our most resourceful man...

 

[zen1000]

Great stuff fellas