The UN-Official guide to cymbal cleaning: The Lime-Ball Method.

[alvyn]

Cymbals. chrome or goldplating on the drumkit,etc :

> Be it showroom display or personal cymbals - it would be good for cymbals & drumkits to look like new ! ( obvious )

> However, fingerprints, dust, sweat, body acid, sulphuric air, fungi are unavoidable.

> They, in due time mar the looks of the cymbal, making them look unsightly.

> Manufacturers either put a thin coat of wax ( which soon rubs off ) or a thin coat of clear lacquer ( which looks marked after the coating flakes off )

> frequent polishing or the lime ball cleaning would eventually wear off the fine tonal grooves of the cymbal ( removing the capability to reproduce rich harmonics that give higher quality cymbals the shimmer & sizzly wash.

It would be akin to shaving ones head -looking bald !( sounding threadbare )
The freshly ' cleaned ' bare ( unprotected ) cymbal would soon oxydize within 6 hours- a waste of time, effort & lime or polish ! )
The very reason why most drummers give up polishing & cleaning after awhile
-a chore & futile attempt

As all drummers soon notice a new set of drums & cymbals soon look old - due mainly from fungi attack as a result of our 99% relative humidity ( we are living on land surrounded by water ! )

>>> There is now a proprietary Cymbal & drumkit Protection treatment available from ACR ( AmazingCustomReference )

>> A SuperProtectant that seals & shields the bare metal from the harmful elements.
1) it is tough - it binds to the metal ( mono molecular )
2) it is invisible - so the surface looks discrete ( nude )
& thus looks better than new ! ( very shiny ! )
3) it is impervious to the elements-acid ,alkaline, grease,etc
4) when dusty- just hose it off under the tap & dry with a clean non abrasive cloth !
5) Retreatment, when neccessary after frequent wear, is easy & no buildup marks !
6) For extra failsafe -three coats could be applied as a start & there after a maintance retreatment for heavy users after about one year !
7) Makes life easy for the drummer besides looking good !

sincerely,
ACR

First of all, this constitutes spamming, as you're technically "sending" us unsolicitated advertisements, which I don't think is allowed on the forums.

Secondly, I beg to differ on a few of your opinions. I don't think you'll be able to wear off the grooves on a cymbal with mere cymbal polish or lime juice... you'll remove a minuscule amount of metal due to the reaction between metal and acid, and you in advertably change the sound of the cymbal - cleaner sound.

I'm assuming that the sulphuric acid you referred to would be from environmental pollutants? But I'm doubtful that the concentration of sulphuric acid that would build up on your cymbal would be of a large enough percentage to actually cause long lasting damage to your cymbal, much less change its sound.

Thirdly, as for the product you're offering, how effective is it, and how safe is it? Drummers using your product will be placing a foreign body, an extra layer, on top of their cymbal. Cymbals vibrate freely and any disruption to their natural vibration is extremely detrimental to the structural integrity, and will result in the cymbal cracking in the long run. If your product is essentially placing an additional layer on the cymbal, would it affect the vibration of the cymbal? At the same time, you mentioned that it is impervious to the elements, meaning very resistant to wear-and-tear, yet why is there a need for 3 initial layers, and a yearly maintenance?

I'm not too sure if I understand what you mean by mono-molecular, and that it binds to the metal. To my understanding, a mono-molecular compound is one that is made up of a single molecule, or has a layer that is one molecule thick. How does this allow more efficient binding to the metal? And just to clear it up, you mentioned that it is invisible, yet it makes the cymbal look better than brand new... oxymoron?

 

[marcdadrummer]

hahaha.. every cymbal goes through oxidization.. patina develops overtime which constitutes to other foreign objects reacting with the metal...

Manufacturers like zildjian/sabian actually leave their cymbal on their vaults before shipping it out so that whatever they coat it on reacts to the cymbal...

Metal rusts. there's many methods to prevent/slow it's reaction..

The limeball method - as suggested by a drummer freind from indonesia, is another method to clean your cymbal - WITHOUT compromising the brand logo to fade away.

Brasso/mrmetal/ normal metal cleaners are very strong and when used, they usually remove the logo, and also they remove a huge portion of surface metal to expose the inner part of the cymbal.

Cymbal cleaners are basically best for their own branded cymbals... like Paiste...

Paiste signature series (not so secret B15 alloy). Their cleaners actually coat more on their cymbals and when used normal or other cleaners, they WILL make your precious paistes looking redder due to the higher percentage of bronze... - source as mentioned by weckl-x...

just to clear some stuff.

btw, my HHRBDR by sabian has developed patina and yes it does change the sound. Sounds more darker and the bell is a more in a lower tune - my comparison with other drummers using the same rides..

 

[ahpek1]

hey guys, my opinion on cymbals is this:

brand new cymbals don't sound as good as used ones. oxidization, dust coat etc only change the tone of the cymbals slightly.
when u play/hit the cymbals - that changes the tone tremendously - just like mini-hammering. The older the cymbals or the longer u play/hit on it, it'll sound better. For example, go to wee lee or boon studio. They have the old b8 cymbals in their studios and they sounds nice aren't they?

Anyways, this is just my personal opinion = )

Cheers!

 

[Composer of Requiems]

I think this thread ought to be revived! It's useful!

Anyway, I didn't know about this method! I normally don't clean my cymbals. But one time, when I was cleaning a cymbal that I was going to sell, I squeezed a lemon over it and wiped it with the lemon rind, then soaped it off and it became a lot more shiny. I guess this works as well as lime, just that it has a bigger surfaces area.

And it smells like dishwashing liquid =D

I wonder if this works on hardware and stands? I'm thinking of polishing my chromed hardware sooner or later, just that I've been really lazy.

As all drummers soon notice a new set of drums & cymbals soon look old - due mainly from fungi attack as a result of our 99% relative humidity ( we are living on land surrounded by water ! )

I was wondering about this after someone kept insisting that oxidation was a fungi attack... fungi can't grow on metal, right?

 

[marcdadrummer]

nic.. i think chrome can't be polished with this kinda metal..

chrome is like a foreign object coated on the surface of the stands...

like a brick covered in paint.. something like that...

God knows what stands are made of but my guess cheap metal?

chroming the thing again is very costly tho.. so i guess better not polish the chrome and instead of getting the former shine, u get silvery chrome tearing out like fragile paper.

 

[Composer of Requiems]

Yeah, it's a pity. I think brasso or autosol or similar works though. Just that it was expensive and smelly. I used it before to polish stands, don't really want to use again.

Cheaper stands are REALLY fragile! I've picked up a lot of broken snare stands from various places. From the looks of it, thicker parts are die cast with some softer core inside, while thin parts are just... thin metal.

 

[hellven]

Hello. I study Materials Science and i'm a drummer myself, so i thought i'd share what i know about oxidation/corrosion.

A smooth surface oxidizes LESS than a rough surface because every pit or crevice can trap moisture in the micro scale. The curvature of the pit concentrates the process, and the products of oxidation will accelerate the process further.

In the use of mild acids to clean cymbals, there will be very small pits produced, each of these can cause corrosion. Despite neutralisation, as long as there is moisture, corrosion will happen and will be faster than before. Each of these pits form "faults" that become crack propogators.

Conclusion: Cleaning cymbals with acid will cause even faster oxidation and promote cracks. The severity of this depends on how often it is cleaned.

 

[mel80]

Hmm interesting insights. Thanks for the input hellven

 

[marcdadrummer]

bottom line, don't clean ur cymbals!!!!!!!

i've stopped cleaning mine already and im kinda digging the looks of it.

but i guess the severity of using very very not acidic cleaner like a lime ball should have very small effects on the cymbal compared to the sabian cleaners which have very strong acid..

anyways bro, what about METAL POLISHES like brasso or mr metal???

 

[Composer of Requiems]

Those metal polishers, I know they work quite well, but they're smelly and cost more!

 

[hellven]

bottom line, don't clean ur cymbals!!!!!!!

i've stopped cleaning mine already and im kinda digging the looks of it.

but i guess the severity of using very very not acidic cleaner like a lime ball should have very small effects on the cymbal compared to the sabian cleaners which have very strong acid..

anyways bro, what about METAL POLISHES like brasso or mr metal???

Well the use of acids, whether low or high acidity, will cause the metal to "corrode". I cannot conclude how severe lime will corrode cymbals since every cymbal has different metal compositions. Some metals oxidise more readily, and since cymbal material compositions are trade secrets, its impossible to predict the damage across all cymbals.


METAL POLISHES like Mr Brasso contain very small abrasive particles. They physically grind away the metal layer on the surface identical to using sandpaper to smoothen a rough surface. But unlike sandpaper, the abrasive particles are very small and thus produce a smoother finish.

The critical issue with physical polishing is the size of the particle used for the polish. If the particle is VERY small, polishing helps prevent corrosion since they smoothen out the whole surface, removing even the small potholes that cause corrosion like i mentioned in the previous post.

But if the abrasive particle is relatively large, the grooves left behind after polishing is too small to be observed by the naked eye but is big enough to leave even more areas to trap moisture. The corrosion process is multiplied. This means your piece of metal is shiny for a while but corrodes very very quickly after that.

How do you tell how small the abrasive agent is? You can't unless you have a lab that can measure particle size distribution!

In other words, USING METAL POLISHES TO CLEAN CYMBALS IS A GAMBLE!

 

[weckl-x]

Another reason to let your bronze develop patina:

Most bronze alloys resist corrosion. Statues and bells made of bronze will weather to a beautiful brown color or develop a green patina (film) characteristic of copper. After such a film forms, bronze corrodes very slowly. Because of this, bronze articles last hundreds of years.

http://www.russianbells.com/founding/bronzealloy.html

 

[marcdadrummer]

hellvan, what about polishing chrome parts of the hardware???

any tips?

 

[hellven]

hellvan, what about polishing chrome parts of the hardware???

any tips?

i believe most chrome polishes will work well on chromed parts. the mechanics are the same as mentioned above.

the key thing here is the metal itself. once again there are a multitude of grades of chromed steel. higher quality ones can remain "stainless" for years while crap ones get oxidized within weeks.

i know i'm not providing much value here, but it really does depend on the metal more than the polish. to compound the situation, there is almost no chance of finding out what quality of stainless steel they use.

 

[singaporean]

wow cool
s' good

 

[Jetame]

wow the picture is so nice thanks for sharing

 

[marcdadrummer]

hmm the mods seems to be inactive.. maybe james could sticky this thread??

and thanks to everyone. i really hope that anyone and everyone would've benefit from this.

 

[PeterS]

Just to add a word of caution about cleaning. Its always best to use the cleaner that the manufacturer recommends, as a first choice. The reason for that is not just because they are trying to get you to buy their polish, but more importantly because they know that theirs work on their cymbals.

For instance for us at Sabian, we have more than one type of coating that goes on some of our different series. We have a cleaner that we know will not harm that finish, no matter which coating it has, and whether or not it is a brilliant or regular finish. THere are some cleaners that when used on a coated cymbal, will actually not only remove the coating, but possibly even result in a very messy surface. Some actually melt the coating for lack of a better term, as opposed to remove it.

So the bottom line best advice I can give here, is if you are using a method of cleaning other than what the manufacturer recommends, then try it on a small portion of the cymbal first, to see if there may be any potential reactions to the coating or finish. Better to have a small spot that does not look right, than the whole surface.

Also, it is always best to clean in the direction of the grooves, as opposed to against it.

I hope this helps.

 

[marcdadrummer]

Hello PeterS!

It's true what you said that it's better to buy polish by manufacturers of the own brand but i have a small complaint here.

It's an old complain so here goes nothing. A fellow softie bought a XS20 pack and together with the sabian cymbal cleaner. He used it a few times and the Cymbal Turned out orange spots.

IDK the condition of the cymbal now but that was quite a long time ago.

Orange-red spots indicates oxidation on the surface as there's a huge percentage of copper in the cymbal alloy mix. Im no chemist whatsoever but in layman terms, the sabian cleaner is too strong that it just eats over the coat on the cymbal.

Also, i tried it on my hhx and the hhx logo faded slightly. I left the solution no more than 15 seconds upon spraying.

But if i remembered correctly, our bro Hozea aka Weckl-x, mentioned about Paiste cymbals and since of their slightly higher copper content on their ahem "secret" ahem alloy, they oxidise faster when used this method as it destroys the layer of coat on the cymbal.

Do read the first few posts, i've posted up quite a handful of sabian cymbals i've cleaned using the limeball method and it works perfectly. And my sabian cleaner is collecting dust in my room.

 

[PeterS]

That is actually quite unusual to hear. I've honestly never heard of that happening with this cleaner. You are absolutely correct that in order for spots like you are describing to appear, some of the coating must have come off. All i know is that I actually was in on the testing for the Sabian cleaner. The goal was to find something that would work on all series or finishes and we found it in that cleaner. I actually use this cleaner myself and we also use it in our factory sometimes as well. I'm certainly not denying or trying to explain away what you're saying. I've just never ran across this complaint about that cleaner before. I'm definitely going to look into it.

In the meantime, yes I did see your pictures and the method you are using seems to work quite well. Bottom line is to use whatever works best for you. That's what matters, not whose brand it is. But again, just test it on a small area first.

One additional comment on the logos. Years ago (I've actually been with Sabian for 27 years) the inks we used for the logos were all oil based. Removing them was extremely difficult. In fact we would have to soak them in near boiling water and use a very strong solvent to remove them. Quite a few years ago, we switched to all mineral based inks. This was because they are much more environmentally friendly. The one disadvantage of using mineral based ink is that they can come off fairly easy. I know its not the best method, but the best way to ensure logos stay on is to avoid them when cleaning. Only problem with that is that eventually, that area will end up looking dirtier than the rest of the cymbal.