Sequencing Tips and Tricks (Part 3 - winds)

Cheez

Moderator
Let's start another thread on sequencing winds. By winds, I refer to both brass and woodwinds - instruments that require somebody to blow into it.

For brass:
1. Do not play block chords. Sequence each part one at a time. Impossible for players to play together to the millisecond.
2. Becareful of the "machine-gun effect" - when playing the same notes very quickly. This happens especially when one uses step recording. Each note, no matter how fast they are played, should have a different velocity. Sequence slow first then change the tempo later. Nowadays, different samples for each fast note are sampled so that when you sequence fast repeated notes, each note sounds different.

Woodwinds are simpler - we don't usually use 3 flutes or 3 clarinets. Usually solo instruments, so block chords problems are rarer. Saxophone samples are the challenge - to date, it is extremely difficult to get very realistic saxophone samples. The closest comes from the Vienna Symphonic Library. This is because there is too much variations in the playing technique.

In all wind instruments, remember:
1. All players need to breathe! The biggest mistake is to sequence extremely long lyrical passages and forget that the player is human. Players can sometimes play as if he is not breathing by using a technique called cyclical breathing - but this is not done commonly. Sometimes I get breathless just listening to some music with sequenced wind instruments. If you have a breathe controller, use it.

2. When a player blow the first note, it has a certain attack. This is called tonguing. The rest of the legato phrase will not have this. So it is better to have samples with both attack and legato variations.

Here is an example of a slow piece I did for my wife a few years ago. Sorry, cannot post the entire song as it is pending copyright (and I'm re-doing the song from scratch). But focus on the woodwind (it is a cor anglais - english horn, the elder brother of an oboe). See if you can see where the tonguing comes in and when it is legato. Also note the breathing points of the player.

http://s22.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1GCHDREV7NKHL3L733871IO7LR

Any other tips?
 
hmm, i have one or two points to add.

it is very important to know when to "breathe", and even more important to know when NOT to breathe, or it'll start to sound weird. taking breaths at crucial points is very important(they shouldn't be at regular intervals).

in an ensemble context, breathing is not as important because players take staggered breaths so it's pretty alright to hold longer notes. however, u gotta be careful with dynamics as an ensemble is a lot less dynamic than a solo instrument. what i mean is, not too much "micro" detail, but more over longer phrases.

and actually i have a suggestion for your piece cheez.. hope you don't mind.. i thought the breath before the G between 1:04 and 1:05 was kinda odd. personally i'd have put it before the F# with some retard or the D.
 
Yes, a breathe before the F# is a good option. Thanks for the suggestion. The reason I put it before G is because of the G is to be held pretty long (the G note was a natural decay - ie the player held to the max). But yes, get me thinking there. Will think about revising when I redo it.

You're also right about over breathing. Hence it is not a problem with brass which are usually sequenced in section. Woodwinds are usually sequenced solo, hence the importance. Even in sections, there are places where all players breathe at the same time. The only time we use "staggered breathing" is when the whole section holds on to a very long note or very slow long phrases.
 
not sure if i should put this in open mic, but since we're on the topic of sequencing winds i thought i'd just post here.

i just remembered that i'd done a winds piece before coupla years ago. also involving cor anglais, and an oboe too. i never found out the title of this piece, so if anyone knows pls tell me.

http://s28.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2RCQ1PG4ZWRJC17H5P1NQVXCKU
a lot of expression pedal being used. indispensable tool for any keyboardist.
 
iansoh,

Nice piece! Yes, I can see you use the expression pedal extensively also in the strings. Interesting combination - cor anglais and oboe. I don't usually use these two together just because they are both double reed.

Actually, I find using a breathe controller much easier than the expression pedal. But since only Yamaha has the keyboards have the breathe controller input, we're very much stuck with our choices. I wonder if you've tried using the mod wheel instead of the expression pedal. I find using the hand gives more control than the foot - at least for me.

The only thing in the winds passages (which is not your fault but the problem with the inherent sample itself) is that all the notes are tongued. What is the source of sound you used?

But I like you piece. Should post more for us!
 
Oh. I just realised why I put the breathe at before the G instead of the F#. It was because the piece was meant to be "sang" - so it's more choral based. The emphasis is on the G note, hence the breathe before that. Perhaps the breathing was a tad too long.

On the subject of winds, I might as well post another one - a song I did in 3 days (big rush) for my sister's wedding a few years ago. I just got back overseas and had very little time to complete it. So please ignore the musical mistakes (one obvious one in there...). 2 wind instruments - the bassoon (not main instrument so very subtle) and the oboe. Again, the last note breathing was like the previous one - unsual but meant to be "sang". My sister told me the "feel" she wanted to walk in for her wedding and this song came up. For lack of inspiration and time, I just named it "Processional".

(for those interested in the details - this is done according to the number of steps my sister need to walk to the altar. 33" -page boy and flower girl's entrance; 57" - bridesmaid's entrance; 1'21" - bride's entrance)

http://s24.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=37MXAFCFCWTVH091B6FIPT3KT
 
thanks for the compliment cheez. haha.. i have a bc-3 breath controller and an ex5 to hook it up to but i haven't figured out how to activate it! :p

anyway, as a hammond player i've had some practice using the volume pedal so personally i'm more at home with that. i like to have both hands on the keys instead of one hand on a knob or slider.

i played everything through the edirol HQ orchestral vsti. just one, but many channels simultaneously. passable sounds.. somewhat thin at times. it's actually possible to play legato, i think.. i have another piece with flute and i had some notes tongued and some legato, but it wasn't done consciously. i haven't figured out what triggers each sample. one thing for sure, i can't play repeat notes legato enough.

any ideas?
 
I don't think the Edirol Orchestra HQ has legato and tongued samples. Perhaps you want to consider getting the Garritan Personal Orchestra? I believe it will benefit you tremendously.

For legato repeated notes, I usually just edit each note after sequencing to lengthen their duration such that it ends on the split millisecond the next note starts. That way, there will be no break in between the notes.

You have a BC-3! That will make a lot of difference to woowinds for sure. I've used it on saxophone sounds in my SY-99 when I had it and it was marvellous. All you need to do is to assign volume control to the breathe controller cc. The problem is that for wind players (or any other orchestral instruments), the tone of the sound changes with volume as well. No way around that unless you get good samples, unless you also assign filters to the breathe controller.

OK. Let's put everthing together - strings, brass, winds etc. I realised that the my music Final Battle in the OM section has been removed. Must be due to space! Anyhow, I'm going to post it again - this time in a higher bit rate than it was before. Just to show how each instrument can be put together. The link is here:

http://soft.com.sg/new/modules.php?...start=15&sid=aa439e8c8d8c095ad1d62fcfdea7c0af
 
Thanks. It was deliberately simply for the occasion (ie wedding) - not to mention done in 3 days and so no time to tidy up orchestration. Not really my type of music though.
 
good stuff

hi cheez,
I listened to the processional song that you did, it's good stuff I must say! can I ask which library you got the cymbol roll from? not easy to find eh. Ah, david foster would be proud.
 
Thanks Kashiwa. All samples come from a very old library - Peter Siedlaczek's Advanced Orchestra. It's written a long time ago.
 
Thanks bongman. Really, it's not that good and has some musical errors in it. (shhhh....). Hope I hid it well so it's not that obvious. Only found out after the music was done - and it was too late to change then.

Hey bongman, are you still performing on weekends. I'm back in Singapore for a while - thought of bringing my wife and kids to hear you play live.
 
Hi Cheez,
No more playing live, although there were some offers to play relieve
canto band on Sundays. Rather tired playing cover versions and
also due to my work schedule which requires me to work on weekends.
The last band stopped after the rhythm section wants to play
jazz and the guitarists are mere rockers; and I'm a pop man

Currently working on some demos, if they are of good quality will post them here.

Good to see generous people sharing work and information here.

Happy Lunar New Year !!!
 
Back
Top