Practice In Jamming Studio + The 'live sound paradox'

[arctichawk]

Hi all.

As jamming studios are usually small and cramped, the volume of sound is super dense and loud, at points impossible to tell apart what anyone else is playing. This is especially so when the drums (acoustic volume) is always very loud. As a result, everyone has to crank up to match the acoustic volume of the drum and this ends up in a big mess of noise.

Second, we all know that the balance of sound is relative to the position of where the person is standing. For example, a bassist hears more bass then the rest ever does. One guitarist might hear the bass, while another does not. When this kind of situation occur, which is the real 'balance' of volume? Do we then fix someone's position, for eg, the singer as the relative correct mix, compromising the balance at the locations where everyone else stands? In this case, then how do we ensure productive jamming, that we can hear that everyone else is playing together and hitting the right notes in a jamming studio when what we hear is not a balanced mix and only the singer does?

Third would be the 'live sound' paradox which I am curious about. In super big gigs, we always see stacks of cabinets right behind the guitarists, and if these were the ones that will be projecting all the way to all the 1000+ people at the rear, wouldn't the guitarists be deaf? And the first row too?

Seems like to solve this, we use stage monitors. Someone once told me that every players' stage monitors are mixed differently as their own input would be raw and loud enough from the amps, so the stage monitors would be playin more mix of other instruments. My question lies here: is there a need then to control our volume on our guitars/pre-amps when we are not hearing the geniune volume being played out on the house?

Apparently, we all know that house speakers will be placed all over an arena so that people at the back can hear, and this final output volume and mix is controlled by the soundman. Does that mean that the final output volume is solely at the mercy of the soundman who is at the mixer? Then whats the point of having volume knobs on our guitars/pre-amps when everything is dictated by the soundman?

Also, is there a need then to ensure a correct mix at the point as I have mentioned earlier as the relative correct mix? Or should we just aim to hear everyone else in the studio, and not care about the precised mix volume for practice sake?

In short, what should be the right mix in a jamming studio? Who should dictate this, but if at live gigs the final mix will be by the soundman, then is there a need then to get a right mix in a jamming studio in the first place? This is the 'live sound paradox' I'm asking about.

 

[Crawldaddy]

Hmm.

First thing anybody needs to understand about such issues is how the instruments fit inside the mix in terms of frequency range. I do believe there is a sticky somewhere that discusses this issue in detail, but more on the recording aspect, rather than live sound.

In a jamming studio, depending on the layout of the amps, PA speakers, drums etc all contribute to the room's sound. So far my favourite rooms are the middle room for Music Ensemble, and the last room in Boon Studios, the one that is not facing the main road.

For the Music Ensemble place it is pretty small, but the layout is simple and easy: 2 guitar amps on the left, drums in the middle, bass and keyboards on the right, PA at either end of the room.

For the Boon place, the drums are in the centre of the room, Guitar amps on either side of the bass amp, which is opposite the drums. PA is behind drums, facing the guitar amps.

I have a particular hatred for places where the guitar and bass amps are in odd places. it is my personal belief that essentially the drummer needs to know what everyone else is playing, and at least all the amps should point towards the centre of the room. And as for 'standing' members.. it is up to them to position themselves such that the sound is not being thrown towards their knees but at least towards their abdomen.

last but not least, for the singer and keyboardist... they need to understand where their place is in the overall mix in order to cut through... proper understanding of equalisation for all parties is particularly important.

For guitars I tend to reduce the bass, add some midrange and treble to taste, such that the sound is not harsh. Bass usually occupies the low end, so I normally ask my bass player to boost more lower midrange so that you can 'feel" the bass rather than hearing it outright. For vocals, I like a clean, crisp sound, so I usually tweak more mids and treble to that the vocal can stand out more.

i have to say that in a gig situation, the same principals apply, but obviously if it's a large venue and your amps are miced up and there are monitors required... it's up to the soundman's ability to identify what kind of sound the band should have, and bring out the best sound that the band can deliver.

 

[godchuanz]

First:
Regarding the loud drums and everyone else having to 'match up'. This is the only way to get a "good mix". To make things more bearable, try to jam in a better acoustically treated room. Not many studios deaden the room or dampen the drums properly, so it's quite hard to find a good place to jam without torturing your ears.
Also, you can invest in ear protection to prevent ear damage.

Second:
I can feel your pain with regards to the positioning of members in the jamming studio. There is no way to avoid this in a typical jamming studio. At certain positions, certain instruments will be very loud/soft. There is no way to know what is the "right mix".
The only way to solve this problem is to give each member a monitor, each on a separate bus of the mixer, so that each member can adjust his own mix. Of course, few studios actually even route everything into the mixer, so if you really need one, you got to really look hard.

Third:
In super big gigs, the cabinets behind the guitarists are usually miked up and sent to the main mixer. In an ideal world, the sound the crowd hears should come solely from the PA and not from anything on the stage. Normally, the cabinets are set to a reasonable volume for the guitar player, and the projection to the back row is done by PA speakers. Usually in big gigs, there are PA speakers at the sides and back.
It is not advisable to use the stage speakers (guitar cabinets) for PA purposes. Don't turn it up too loud. Just use it for stage monitoring, and leave the PA side to the sound engineer.

Question: Do you adjust volume on the guitar when you don't hear yourself coming out of the house:
You should just concentrate on hearing yourself and your bandmates properly on stage. Leave the PA to the PA guy(s). That's what the soundchecks are for.
Make sure you can hear your desired mix, don't worry about what the audience hear. What you hear is very different on stage than in the audience. Let the PA guy worry about what the audience hear.

 

[unsane]

when you see walls of guitar/bass cabs at big gigs all but one are usually dummy unloaded cabs, its for show.

 

[gothviruz]

This is a very good read indeed. Cos i had the exact concern in mind, regarding jamming studio sound set ups.

I'm setting up a jamming studio. So far most of the jamming studios dun hook up their instruments to a mixer. Am i rite?

I want the jamming sound to come out from the same speakers (like they do in pubs, lounge).

My sound gears will be:-

1) Behringer PMP2000 powered amp
2) Yamaha A12 Speakers x2

Is it possible to hook up everything (guitar and bass amps) to the Behringer Powered Amp so that the sound will come out from the Yamaha Speakers?

Or should i use floor monitor speakers instead?

If not, wat shld i get?

Thanks.