of cables,balanced signals and mono or stereo

[buffalo man]

So after reading this page on cables http://www.tweakheadz.com/all_about_cables.htm

my conclusion is that

1.) TRS = cables to connect up balanced equipment
2.) TS = cables to connect up unbalanced equipment.

Must be balanced gear --> balanced cables(TRS or XLR) --> balanced gear = BALANCED CONNECTION

i also learnt that headphones send out 2 unbalanced signals of audio so even though it uses TRS it is unbalanced.

Next thing i want to confirm is about the whole mono and stereo thing.

1.) i know that there are BALANCED or UNBALANCED mono audio signals but are ALL BALANCED signals only in mono?

 

[blueprintstudios]

so far from what I remember that's relevant to my mixes anymore..

http://www.soft.com.sg/forum/showthread.php/38326-DIY-Recording-FAQ

TRS = stereo / balanced / or XLR (mono)
TS = mono / unbalanced, unless the other end of the cable is a TRS (stereo) to 2xTS (mono L R).

I think signal is only balanced if the OUTPUT of the gear/audio interface is balanced. there're some that puts out unbalanced.

 

[kongwee]

For balance audio connection, the output must send positive signal(In phase), negative signal(180 degree out of phase) and return ground to a input with instrumental differential amplifier to do noise rejection for audio signal.
Manufacturer will just write balance out to describe the output.
Manufacturer just use balance input for describe the receiving end.
Mostly in importantly manufacturer sometime misuse the "balance" word, to describe the noise rejection method I describe above.
This is something I will look out buying audio gears.
If you are starting to do professional audio, this is something you must know even you do not have a formal training.

Technically TRS, XLR, TS... are just different form of connectors.

 

[blueprintstudios]

Buffalo man : As the above cut-n-paste and one big round and back theory, the one I stated on DIY Recording FAQ gotten me through for last 10 years without a 2nd question. A must if you're running a cable shop or maybe a teacher or something, but otherwise life's basic requirements is commonsense, earn money, count money.Heh.

 

[kongwee]

This theory exist in all your pro gears. Too bad decades of experience do not know how to get the best out of his equipments.

 

[blueprintstudios]

I see, no wonder I don't sound like as crap as people following the dead book.
Too bad you're lacking the 3 basic skills and will never live the best of your life.Heh.

 

[kongwee]

Nice argument, bros.

 

[blueprintstudios]

Cheers, Gd job generating views for this section.

 

[buffalo man]

ok i think whats really confusing me is the connections i have to make

i have korg m50 keyboard (unbalanced outputs L n R) ,i need to connect it to my steinberg cl1 audio interface which has balanced L n R inputs,can i just use TS cables will that be an issue? or should i run my keyboard through a DI box before it goes into the audio interface to make everything balanced?

 

[kongwee]

You can connect using TS cables to link your m50 and CL1.
It will be unbalance.
You will experience about -6db drop in volume from CL1.
However, since your keyboard has no balance output so you really cannot compare.

If you experience click,pop or noise , then you have to use DI boxes for your keyboard.
Run short cable from your keyboard to DI boxes.
Run long cable from DI to CL1, as usual.
Mostly likely you will like the sound using DI boxes rather than direct connection.
You need to run TRS,XLR or TRS-XLR from DI to CL1 depending on what the connections are available to you.

 

[blueprintstudios]

you may opt for a DI box (or rather TWO DI Boxes) , a good brand would be Radial, then wire them into your AIF (audio interface) however, the difference between balanced and unbalanced in sound would be a difference even I can't tell much in a blindtest. I've tried it before.

What significant difference which will make is if you're using your
m50 > good DI boxes > AIF
VS
m50 > good preamps (and I'm talking about $1000 range onwards) > AIF (with the onboard gain turned off since you're using the preamp's gain.)
or even better m50 > DI box > Preamp > AIF.
but this significant difference is again only obvious with mixing for quite an amount of money spent, unjustified. and still supposed to be using an AIF with balanced line inputs , no onboard preamp which your CL1 doesn't have as it's an all-in-one non upgradable solution.

for your m50, maybe you're digging the onboard sound module now, but give it a year or two, you'd rather spend the money on a software synth/sound sample, and just buy a midi controller to have access to a thousand high quality sounds which owns your m50. then preamp/DI boxes will be the least of your worries unless for a live situation.

so all that big round talk, if I were you I'd just buy 2 1/4" cables , plug it into m50, plug it into CL1, and don't think so much for now and just work on the mixing technique as you're worrying about quality/country of origin of ingredients when you barely know your way around the kitchen.You would only need to worry about impedance problems if you're doing guitar reamping which your current setup is not capable of.

 

[kongwee]

It is very easy to ear balance and unbalance in a blind test.
The most obvious signatures I have experience so far is the dark or black background.
This is even so in a DI box.
In some case, good balance connection has very revealing character.
These difference will determine how you are going to mix.
With all the big talks from both of us, you just need to try and keep the secret to yourself.
I still wanna have my fun.

 

[blueprintstudios]

buffalo man : do try hearing balance and unbalance in a blind test since someone has said it's very easy, make sure you don't let your brains play mind games with your ears , don't let your self fulfilling prophecy ambition exaggerate your mixing techniques and don't let your pointless unjustified impractical experiments empty your wallet + waste your time.. Heh.

 

[blueprintstudios]

buffalo man : before I forget to mention, any theory regarding balanced and unbalanced is all over google. just like I said in my 1st reply it plays little relevance to my mixes , I'll only read it if it makes a huge difference in my sound in terms of mixing technique as my brain's wired more for unorthodox invention not recitation.

https://www.google.com.sg/search?q=sound+difference+between+unbalanced+and+balanced+recording
http://www.audiomasterclass.com/recordproducer/?a=192
http://www.harmonycentral.com/docs/DOC-1102
etc etc etc

it's just justification of your situation since you're using a CL1 and if the price difference between [2 1/4" TS cables ] vs [DI box / XLR cables combined / possibly a new better audio interface] is peanuts to you, + you have plans to study audio engineering by all means spend time memorizing and applying. Though again like I said, if you have a budget for it, balanced outputs, used balanced TRS/XLR cables + DI Box. if not, minimal layman approach will work without breaking your wallet. remember the basic life skills I mentioned, too many I've seen lurking around without any of it heh.

 

[buffalo man]

@blueprintstudios

thx man i went ahead with that,i think i'll most prob consider di boxes in future but not now,yeah i gotta work harder on my mixing skills.

and btw without trying to start another thread once again,
my audio interface has line outs to L and R speakers seperately
i'm using a kurzweil ks 40A monitors now and when i connect the left side of my audio int line out to the monitors using a 1/4" adapter(the cheap $2.50 1/4" to 1/8") to a [1/8" to RCA] cable it only comes out on one side of the speakers,is it advisable for me to use the phones out on my interface instead? or shld i use 2 [1/8" to RCA] cables and connect to my monitors,one cable using only the white color connector and the other cable only using the red connector,will it blow or something lol

 

[blueprintstudios]

I have a saying, if you train yourself and improve with the worst of equipment or minimalist of necessities, you have no excuses to suck when you upgrade your gear.

Here's how I would wire your setup. AIF = audio interface.

Mics/Input > 1/4" or XLR > AIF > Phones out > if your headphones can support 1/4" just plug in. if not, add a 1/4to1/8 (earphone) adaptor, and put in your earphones.

AIF > Line L and R output > 1/4 TS MALE x2 (Mono,SINGLE BLACK LINE) convert to RCA jack, plug in your RCA cables (White = L , Red = R) to the Kurzweil's inputs.

what happened in your situation is either bad connection or signal somehow got lost between conversions cos you're doing 1/4" , 1/8" and RCA over and over.

Your "MIX" knob, set to DAW fully, unless you wanna monitor through the inputs directly. but if your latency settings are done right, you'll just need to go through the DAW. and at least have minimal vst plugin compression set on the recording track for better monitoring especially for vocals.

 

[kongwee]

Rather save for DI, buy another keyboard if you are heavy keyboard user.
Some keyboard do have balance and unbalance output especially top-tier ones.
The key is go unbalance throughout or balance throughout.

 

[blueprintstudios]

Rather than save for another keyboard, I would highly suggest you use your korg m50's USB midi interface function, look into/buy VSTis. You'll never worry about balanced or beh balanced. Next stop - latency.

 

[buffalo man]

@blueprint

hey man thanks for all the advice,i decided to use my halion se vst on my cubase 6 as i really think its sound is so much more superior haha,i've switched to using all virtual pianos and synths sounds instead,much easier and convienient as well,thanks man,gonna go get the 2x ts to rca converters,my latency settings are all properly set but the only thing i don't really understand is your last point about having minimal compression set on the recording track,how does it result in better monitoring?

 

[blueprintstudios]

to cover my last point :

m50 > USB to midi interface > AIF > DAW + VST (halion) > Kurzweil monitors etc.

if you're playing piano to a backing rock band track, and if the piano vst sound you're using isn't bright enough.
you would stack/insert a VST plugin (at DAW stage) of a compressor to make your keys punchy OR an EQ which spikes up the mids/high mids to "CUT THRU" the rock band track without having to decrease the -db much just to hear your piano. but if you stack too many effects/vsts, the latency between your key note press and the hearing of it has a "lag" caused by probably too many vst plugins or a very intensive cpu usage plugin.

same, if you were recording vocals, the gain is set right, your monitoring is maxed +6db but it's still not enough, so I'd stack a light compressor to bring out all pronunciation and breath or in case your lips and teeth decide not to work with each other and make weird smacking sounds which is NOT heard in RAW take, but heard after exaggeratedly compressed (which you can adjust it again later at final mixing stage)