Mixing practice files.

[Ikiru]

Hey guys!

I've seen a lot of questions on MIDI, room acoustics, how to record, master, but not much on mixing. I wonder why... So far I'm searching for methods to improve my mixing skills on, but what to do if I don't have anything to work on? I think there are many young no-budget engineers who aren't musicians or are not part of bands resulting in having no sources to work on whatsoever. Neither can everyone afford to take courses in schools, or find that schools just aren't teaching enough.

Anyway, I've been googling a bit myself and so far my best search result is this particularly awesome compilation. It is filled with raw .wav files that users were able to make use of to practice mixing on (Not for commercial use!). Would be cool seeing such things in our local music community. Maybe I haven't been searching enough on SOFT, but I'm not really seeing threads like these popping up here. I think it would be a good learning experience if anyone else had similar websites to share, or their own raw recordings that they're willing to share with engineers who are wanting to learn and improve.

What I'm asking for is session or .wav file contributions which I personally would find useful in my, and any other new engineer's desire to improve their mixing techniques on. I've already contributed what I've found, but it would be nice to expand the list/genres more and share our mixes/mixing logs for referencing... etc. Like, "rate my mix!" rather than "rate my song!" Also, sharing is caring, haha.

I just find the whole "Sound Engineering" sub-forum so underused!

I don't know how this suggestion would work out or if its redundant, but thanks for hearing me out! I'm glad even if the only good thing out of this hell long post is an external link lol.

 

[blueprintstudios]

Ikiru : ever had ur own kitchen at home and utensils and have an outsider on a forum to tell you how to cook and what to eat? it's the same concept for someone telling you how to mix. then again you can read up the famous Brandon Drury's KHR.

it's a very interesting thread you've got there linked, you really could practise from the stuff there on your own. just that local bands pay hardearned money for recording and i believe they will be uncomfortable with their raw tracks being posted and studios don't have the right to too.imagine if a studio released their official recording and someone made a mess out of it, no one wants to claim credit for better or worse. lets just wait and see which generous band would yeah?

for now it seems under used because people are still learning about recording than mixing.those who know how to mix, have their own way. it'll just amount up to useless debate and entertainment of insecurities on who's who's better based on who works with which big band or using big gear.

in any case, great suggestion, if no one starts the ball rolling, until I'm done with my reservist in september I'll try.

 

[Ikiru]

This isn't about being told how to mix, it's being told how to improve. It's like in audio engineering courses where you showcase your demo or final recordings and be criticized about it. Why should you pay thousands of dollars to learn something limited and then have that one chance to present it when you can showcase it here on a forum dedicated to the local music scene, for free, and have more opportunities to be told how to improve constantly? Or, why wait until someone asks for help when we could at least be actively sharing our mixing tips and tricks in a compiled post rather than just recording and gear. We do that for musicianship, recording, the guitar..etc..etc already anyway!

I understand how bands may be unhappy about sharing their few hundred dollar recorded tracks being messed about. Like paying hundreds for good ingredients and someone else making cheap dishes out of it, right? Then that's fine not sharing. I respect a musician's choice. That aside, I think bands without that budget can try to find a good engineer to collab with, or if they're up to the challenge, let a few people mix their recording and they pick the best one out of it. Engineers get a portfolio and experience, bands get a free song hahaha. It's like some audio school's projects without the extravagant free. Again, it's up to them. Just a suggestion, you know.

But all these is just me la, I'm really interested in improving so its not necessary about the money. I'm not even working in the industry yet because I know I'm not up to it. No point being unable to produce a properly balanced mix, yet still demand a high paying engineer job just because I finished an audio course. A cert just means I'm lucky.

Regardless, even if we don't share our own recorded songs, no harm sharing similar websites with practice files available, right? I have downloaded a few files off the thread I posted last night, and they're some pretty good raws giving you a lot of free space to experiment with. Personally I would like more stuff to play with then just metal and rock so I'm still searching. I might post what I have done with the files later on when I get down to mixing it.

 

[soft]

Ikiru, thanks for starting this thread. This is a great idea and I am sure SOFTies who are interested in mixing will have more opportunity to improve their skill when they have more material to practise on.

 

[blueprintstudios]

Ikiru : if you want to be told how to improve, you should only listen up to your clients/bands on their wants & needs. the fans/friends/audience pays the band, the band pays the audio engineer. ever had another audio engineer's opinion affect your mix only for your band to say "dude wth did you do, it sounds worse now" and u kick yourself for listening to the biased opinions of the other producers, you are what the band engaged.

what I would suggest is you put up your mixes here for people from all walks of life to criticize , and you take your pick on what feedback that works best in the direction for your mix. that's what I do back then when I had a usual favourite "team of trusted critics on MSN"

for now a safe choice would be we link over and download what's at the other forum and put it up here? haha.

 

[Ikiru]

Yeah, true... especially if you're working, then it's always client first? But sometimes even the band or client don't know what they want. I've had bands tell me "Oh, you just do your magic and make everything sound awesome!" That makes me want to smack myself or them hard, especially when I asked for THEIR opinion since it's their song. Apparently I've heard stories of producers/clients being just as ... ahem. I guess I see audio engineering not as a profession and all about the money, but a skill I'm trying to continuously improve like an instrument I play, so to me it's not always about the clients' and bands' opinion, especially if say at the end of the day, I'm my own client. I suppose this is where our views differ?

I guess having bands share their sessions with engineers seem like too new and risky a thing to start introducing locally so yeah, you're right. I won't insist they do it since there's always Google. Safest is to use what's already available to practice with too. However, doesn't mean we still can't share general tips on mixing! ... Unless our techniques are like top secret "I'll have to kill you if I tell you" type. haha...

Anyway, I think this would be pretty useful. I know we can always google these ourselves, but it'll still be nice to compile everything on a forum that many of us musicians and engineers alike drop by often, and every one has different methods after all.

 

[kongwee]

Sometime those clients or band don't really understand the whole process of producing the end product. They don't know the pain of sitting down infront of a DAW and do endless "magic". There is a limit to the "magic". Also with just a few hundred they spend, they hope to produce Billboard top 40 quality.

 

[blueprintstudios]

I don't know bout you, whether i'm working or not, I make sure the band has as much fun as I do. the band chooses the producer to represent their music/sound to their audience, so no one should tell them how they should sound unless they really have no idea, then I usually just ask what their influences are, and listen to them as well and portray it myself.
because bands being musicians usually have no "audio geek" mentality and sometimes the ones who think they know end up saying all sorts of stuff that don't make sense, no need to slap anyone here, it's very common, we're all trying to learn.

if you're your own client, then ask, how much do you actually trust your own judgement as producer/audio engineer? what genre are you playing, and if you were going to get an outside opinion of another producer who "specializes" (have a tendency to work with this genre more, and you really like the sound) , who would you prefer to ask? surely you can operate as if you're playing monopoly and imagining you're a client/band and a producer and your client side would be paying your producer side fake monopoly money. recording/mixing for fun, but operating as if it's an imaginary business so when you're ready to take this another level you've been prepared.

I'm "true" and "right" on alot of things, but I'm just simply saying things that's very very generic and neutral where there's nothing to fight for or debate on cos we all have our own beliefs. So it's all cool that you're taking effort to contribute to the sound section of SOFT forum. just that personally, if I had to lets say, share mixing tips ,
1) only to be ridiculed behind my back for unorthodox methods by "professionals" or people going through the standard audio course way.
2) when it works for the new guys (I do "share/teach" the tips with alot of SOFTie engineers here on MSN, some know how to ask nicely) but most just plainly go "oh. any more? oh , anymore? k gtg bai", seriously I cannot think of a better way to waste my time than that. now I would just go, "Ikiru of Soft Forum put up this killer gearslutz link, go chant the entire webpage like a sutra till you memorise everything."
So before you get discouraged later on from what I went through, at least I have a "I told you so" right now.

btw, why not you record bands,get the permit and put up tracks to start the ball rolling in the mean time?

 

[Radius_Vector]

Well, yeah bands will not want to share their recorded samples, but there are plenty of free samples (CC licensed) available on the web for your expermenting pleasure. This site is an example. There are tons more. However, since they are mainly samples - you might have to use some creative juice in getting them together to put a song - or you might be lucky in finding already mixed tracks.

However, it's rare to find FULL songs with individual tracks that are available to mix for the same reason mentioned above. IMO, the best way to learn mixing if you are not a musician, is to invite a few bands who are yet to record - record for free. This will give you the much needed experience in recording, and also mixing. As ron said, you might want to consult the bands before you decide to put it up for other people to try it out.

 

[Ikiru]

If I had the equipment, space and money to record bands, I totally do it for free, or just record myself and practice from there! But can't afford to eat, how to even rent studio to record? Haha.. sad

So far the bands I have asked to record are bands which are looking for the recording experience and because it's free. We do have fun doing it, and I learn a lot from my errors. But sometimes I just want to facepalm because I do hope they can take their song as seriously as I take spending hours in front of a DAW with ear fatigue trying my best for them. I want both of us to be proud of the entire end product, but end of they day they listen to it and just go "Oh, okay. Thanks!" That's it. They don't let me know how to make it better, or tell me the main flaws. I'm left hanging, then I move on. Now that I'm free I'm thinking of pulling out those session files to rework on them together with those that are accessible to the public.

Orthodox or unorthodox, I think if it sounds good, it's good. But sometimes I guess if what I share too isn't all that appreciated too, then no point also right? Some people just like to be spoon fed.

Anyway, since I can't share my own recordings, I think I, as a newbie, would like to start sharing some starter tips that helped me out when I first touched a DAW, even if they are general and obvious:

1. When it comes to balance, I don't listen to everything and balance from there. It's too messy. I bring down all the faders and slowly pull up each track until it sounds balanced before I start throwing in plugins. I start from the drums and move on to bass, a set of instruments/elements at a time. I did both before, but found the latter more effective in achieving a decent balance. It's something I learnt from a separate forum I can't quite remember.

2. A lecturer once told me that it's helpful to listen to your mix at low levels so that you can really hear what stands out and what doesn't rather than hear everything loud and mix blindly/deafly(?). I find that when everything is loud, you can hear everything but can get confused or easily miss out if an instrument is actually properly balanced.

3. Same lecturer told me this, which I found very important. "If you don't like your mix, what makes you think others else would?" In the end still have to trust yourself to some extent. If you don't like what you've done, how to present it to others?

4. Use a reference to the song you're mixing, whether it has a similar genre or musical property. I think it could give you a good guideline in terms of tonal properties of an instrument that you can EQ according to the ref or just an overall balance. I think even veteran engineers still use references.

Yeah, that's all I have so far... Still learning, can't help it Since we clearly won't be doing the whole share your session thing and its pointless continuing over it, how about me just changing the topic here and asking how to go about mixing vocals in a general sense, or how would you guys usually go about mixing your vocals? Throw a bunch of reverbs on it, duplicate and pans tracks here and there with delays on the duplicates, or what? I would really like to know because sometimes the most typical method of putting on a reverb doesn't seem to work for me! It always sound too upfront or too dry. Maybe I'm doing it wrong... Thanks!

 

[kongwee]

For vocal, it depend on the song. Most of time, I will do a high pass filter start around 80hz or so to control the "body". Put plate or spring reverb. The level of dry/wet signal according to the flow of the song. Slow song is alway more wet than fast song. Put a little bit of compression, or sidechain it is other method. I used to mix 5 or 6 vocal with simple piano and guitar. Not really band mix. Now I'm more concentrating on music arrangement, but mixing come into place when you DIY. I am not audio engineering trained, but I study electrical engineering. Still manage to understand thing in technical way.

Other way of to understand vocal mix, it is get an original and instrumental of a song. Extract the vocal part out and listen to the effect. Of cos, you must able to tell the level of reverb and compression(or whatever) in there.

 

[blueprintstudios]

Ikiru : record on laptop on location at jamming studios. location recording at per hr rate. bands cover.

"But sometimes I just want to facepalm because I do hope they can take their song as seriously as I take spending hours in front of a DAW with ear fatigue trying my best for them."
because it's free. "even if you're good. take it easy, it's just for fun/for free/for learning experience." (yep i'm using your words against you) that's how bands are going to take you. been there man. i'm not saying start charging, but minimalize making your "clients" (even if you're just learning) as guinea pigs and they won't make one out of your effort.

"Orthodox or unorthodox, I think if it sounds good, it's good." <-- if more ppl thought like you when I started out, I wouldn't have to go through that much shiat lol. people are easily distracted by big pretty studios.

if you share because you expect to be appreciated,they aim to disappoint. So I highly encourage, share because you feel like it. I unexpectedly (ultra temperamental) give free recording for bands simply cos I feel like it.not cos I expect something in return. the 2 guides I typed out (recording/vocals) , was for same reason. not cos I'm being paid to do so.

about your lecturer's theory : main reason why you should mix at low levels is to reduce ear fatigue and chances of hearing loss from cranking for hours. and i've said this many times in my past posts so I'll just repeat, there's usually 3 levels of listening. 1) consumer 2) musician 3) audio engineer.
1-melody/lyrics
2-guitar/bass/drums
3-frequencies,compression,reverbs, etc.
ask yourself who are you mixing for. a mix so that it's radiofriendly (depends on genre) , so consumers tend to focus on the vocals. for your client cos that's what they're engaging you for? or to try impress other audio engineers?
cos I'm never 100% happy with my mix and you will too , your life shall be miserable lol. so I said earlier "consumer pay the band, band pay the audio engineer, other engineers don't pay you." so unless you have a mixing technical question to impress other engineers, your focus end of the day is your recording band and their fans.

can you imagine if you're not satisfied with your mix, other engineers are barely impressed, the band isn't overwhelmed by it, let alone consumers (they won't be listening to the band cos of your mix, they'll be listening cos of the band's music) , isn't that simply depressing? audio engineers are like prostitutes, u don't play with yourself to know that you're good, it's the demand and desire of bands that want and willing to pay money to bang ya hard over and over and tell you how great you are before you're convinced with yourself. we all need to start off with a free f*** before we choose whether to be a cheap hooker or a highclass social escort.

My tip for vocals is compression/multibands/eq/reverb/de-essers/exciters whatever u need to use or you like to use... in general a good vocals mix should start with great vocals recording. then all pronunciation should be heard clearly, pitching,tempo, feel etc balanced nicely so it doesn't overpower or get drowned out or even sit ontop of the band's mix like humpty dumpty. methods 10001, if it sounds good for you and the band, it's for the win.

 

[kongwee]

Lastly, these is a vocal:music ratio. This a term I came across in mastering. Many genre, different place, the vocal and music loudness is different. Whatever possible, know your client what kind of music they listen to and mix according to that.

 

[Ikiru]

Maybe a nice sincere thank you wouldn't kill right, lol. I mix for the sake of mixing, I like doing it, it's fun but I don't do it with a bo chup attitude either just because there's no loss. I'll do it for free regardless because there's something driving about it. Too lazy to write another long post defending myself for some purpose or another... tired already haha. Basically all I'm asking is tips that can help a mix in general and when I'm done applying what I've researched and learned, I'd want to ask you guys and the band if I'm recording/mixing for one FOC, "Does this sound good in your opinion?" and then learn more from criticism. How to put this... I treat engineering as an art, not a job, not a business, not as part of the industry's "food-chain". So for all the "band pays you" talk, I don't know what I should feel towards it.

Heck, I'm working in a manufacturing factory after finishing an audio course, not even remotely close to a studio haha. I'm here just trying to constantly improve so that one day when I ask for critics maybe God knows 10 years down road, someone would go "hey, this mix is not bad!" IMO It's gonna be so sad if musicians wouldn't take it seriously just because it's free. I'd like to see people be more enthusiastic about the ART of being an engineer than the business of it. Like the art of playing the guitar rather than the job of being a highly paid rock star. Then again, maybe I'm just being naive lol.

Gonna leave this thread for when I or anyone else have questions about mixing, I guess. Don't really feel like going on, lol. Can go on forever x___x

By the way, what do you mean by recording with a laptop on location?

 

[kongwee]

By the way, what do you mean by recording with a laptop on location?

Meaning, bring a laptop with mic and audio interface to do on-site recording.

 

[kongwee]

Ikiru, by proper/professional way of mixing, client(producer or whatever people) have to sit with you for mixing session. Of cos, you could do some sound balancing,effect, panning....etc in advance. That person have to point out in every section to you what should be done. You can correct on spot or note down when it is too time consuming. At the same time, you could point what can be done and what is out of your limit. Sometime clipping, out of tune,out of sync.... you can show what the limit of "magic". In this way, you don't need to do guessing work and focus on getting desire result. Even your client know nothing, you can "educated" him/her on spot. In this way, you will gain trust and reputation. If the client back out this process, at least you made known.If the result is not good, you don't feel bad too. Don't correct all the stem tracks, mix yourself and present it.

 

[blueprintstudios]

ikiru : oh, you were defending yourself? sorry I did not mean anything negative, barely even trying. pls do help yourself and make yourself comfortable and post up mixes and ask for tips and opinions on improvement. when I first started out I had "naive" passion exactly the way you did, and it's very idealistic.all your "art" and "do it not for the money for the love" etc I (and many of us here when we were starting out I'm sure) have it the same way one way or another.we're still doing it for the love, you sound highly mistaken as if the world has ended,but "income" is reality check bro, I'm not sure how old you are but you sound very very enthusiastic and driven, which is great.there's only 2 ways to learn, your own hard way, or the shorter-path-by-learning-from-others's-mistakes hard way.

I do not have a studio. my gear is portable. I record anywhere from bedrooms,jammingstudios,other recording studios,cafes,voiddeck even through MSN (virtual recording:guiding the musician to mike up, he record himself,his own gear then send tracks over i mix/master.).I have a dayjob and 3 freelance jobs,psle cert,don't play a single instrument and i'm a married man.So your statement about the passion reminds me of the more-free time I used to have and wished I spent more time doing than procrastinating.

I ever saw someone's msn quote "if you have a dream/passion you must protect it." such a simple statement, with so much indepth meanings cos it makes who you really are. keep it up.