How to mix with digital guitar inserts?!

[Tharenii]

Ok people...

I've been mixing mixing mixing mixing my bands songs for the past 2 months DAILY!! AND COULD NEVER GET IT DONE!!

I am using Guitar Rig 3 software... with guitar rig interface.. Everything was recorded at my house....
Drums were recorded live at a studio, which means i have seperate tracks (tom1 tom2 tom3 snare etc.)
So i recorded the guitars, bass and vox at my house.
I always found it a problem to mix.. it just sounds muddy. noisy. and just doesnt have that OOMPH..
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Here is where i noticed a problem.
I usually record down ideas with a drum machine (Drumkit from Hell)
When i record with a drum machine ZERO PROBLEM!! everything sounds tight!
So i thought its something to do with the drums..

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Here is where i CONFIRMED there is a problem
My other band recorded drums and guitars at TNT..
I brought the tracks back home just to fiddle around with it...
I could do a DECENT ROUGH MIX in 10 mins.
Like i could get the oommhh the ahhh and the bomb...!!!

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Fellow softies... i would really need some help on this issue

Thank you!

 

[blueprintstudios]

past 2 months? hmmm. I took about 2 years when line6 pod was invented... or more I think?
welcome to the passion for the art of sound

 

[Tharenii]

hahahaha .... how bro.. it'd be nice to know how to deal with this nonsense...
I am not gonna give up though... but its just !@#$ing annoying...

I just experimented by putting a mic on a lousy vantage 15 watt amp runnig with my toneworks pedal...
did a quick mix...
IT SOUNDS BETTER THAN THE INSERTS!

Why is this so?

 

[l0u5y]

i dun really understand ur question. How to mix with digital inserts? I guess my only advice is use ur ears.

 

[gutturalpiss]

You have to find your tone, and then you have to LAYER.

If your 15-watter sounds better than GR's material, then you haven't settled on a tone.

 

[Tharenii]

No bro... the problem is.. the tone is sexy...
if i record with a drum machine it sound WOOHOOOO the mix is sexy as hell..

But with live drums..OMG the mix sound like noise... if i am not wrong this is where i use the word MUDDY!!! IT SOUNDS MUDDY!!!

15watt didnt sound better than the GR, it just had less or no problems in the mix...

It would be nice to know what can i do to get that UMMPHHH mix... like what can i add... (eg. filters etc)

 

[Radius_Vector]

Mix-engineering has a steep learning curve, but once you navigate that you'lll find that it's a lot of fun.

By Oomph, youre hinting at an advanced concept called Compression.

But before that, I'd recommend that you learn editing, how to clean up your tracks, gating etc.. All that's far more important, initially. But ultimately, how much ever you read/study - nothing beats trying it out for yourself in your DAW. Good luck.

My 0.02$

EDIT - A little routine that's worked well for me for live drums

1) Clean up drum tracks, route each track of the drums to a group track.
2) Pan them well in stereo field (Ride, Hats, toms, cymbals) - Kick and snare dead center.
3) Listen again - if it's still a bit 'space-less' and muddy, gate your tracks with a better threshold
4) Compress Kick and Snare separately. Att:Rls based on your specs
5) Compress overheads to taste. Add reverbs to liven up your sound (Be very careful)
6) Add a touch of overall compression if needed.
7) Effects

 

[widdly]

What is a "Digital Guitar Insert"?

Huge Guitar + Huge Bass + Huge Drums + Huge Vox = HUGE mess

You should listen to the instruments in the mix and forget about listening to any track solo'd.

The reason your 15w Guitar sounded better was the sound occupied less frequencies. It probably had a lot less low-mids. EQ each of your tracks individually. Only use cuts and never boost.

Muddy usually means too much going on in the low-mids. Try making some cuts around 400Hz in the instruments that have a lot of low mids (bass, kick, snare, guitar, maybe overheads).

 

[gutturalpiss]

It looks like your drums are the culprit, if you're saying you did an A-B comparison with a triggered/sampled/sequenced drum and that's the result.

Well, for a starter, drum samples from BFD/whateverexpensivedrumsequencer are of real high quality. They have their own reverberation properties, including room acoustics, mic characteristics, and the timbre of the drum component which is generally at its peak. They're usually layered with a number of samples, often being 3. So in the end, you mixed your guitars to a totally different drum recording, so to say.

You now have to deal with creating pockets in the frequency for them to sit nicely. Your live drum room is not the greatest, and coupled with your miking and mics, provides you with an overall "muddy" mix when played back together with other recorded material.

 

[Tharenii]

Thanks for the advice brothers.

The drum tracks cant be the culprit, because i tried recording with drum machine and live drums with the 15watts.. and there is no problem i can hear the notes..

I just tried experimenting DI. I just connected my Toneworks into my soundcard, and recorded with drum machine and live drums...
It still sounds good. But when i try guitar rig 3 software its horrible, i tried other softwares to see whther its the software that is the problem.. And realised that all the guitar inserts give me mud.
Softwares i tried, "peavey revalver mk iii" and "amplitube" and "Guitar Rig 3 software"

Please correct me if i am wrong i think software inserts are the problem.

I am sure there is a way to deal with this... its hardcore porno man

 

[CogitoAngMoh]

less can be more

Trying to capture a topic as complex as the art of mix engineering in a single thread or post is nigh impossible, but a lot of the guys here have already given you some really good advice. Without looking at your mix as it currently stands, it would be impossible to really offer valid advice, so i'll try to stick to generalizations based on the information you've provided.

1) You've been working on the mix for 2 months(!) which could be part of the problem. In that situation, human nature is generally to continue to add, add, add rather than subtract. You could have so many effects/EQ boosts/compressors/limiters going on the various tracks that the predictable outcome is sonic mud.

When you've been working on something so long, you get a lot invested "emotionally" and possibly have lost perspective. It can be painful but sometimes, if you've gone too far down the wrong road, the best thing to do is strip everything out and start a new mix from scratch.

2) All of Widdly's advice was dead on, especially the part about BIG everything = BIG MESS. Remember each instrument needs a sonic "drawer" to fit in. Your tools are: VOLUME, EQUALIZATION, PANNING, and EFFECTS. Use these selectively and judiciously to find a "home" for each of the instruments in the mix. Repeat the mantra "Less Can Be More...Less Can Be More" over and over again until you believe it or you are ready to sell all your worldly possessions and join a cult.

3) Remember that bass sounds seem to take up more space in the mix than treble sounds. They also tend to mask other instruments/sounds as well. So instead of boosting the other sounds so they are heard "up front" and over the bass or that crushing 8x12 full stack guitar cab sim you are running, try cutting their EQ curves selectively, using highpass filters, and/or reducing their respective volumes. Check out this handy EQ primer to help you along: http://www.recordingwebsite.com/articles/eqprimer.php

4) Learn how to use a Parametric EQ to zero in and "Seek and Destroy" annoying frequencies or mud. This is a great trick and has been a quick fix lifesaver for me on many occasions. If "mud" is the problem, then try setting your scalpel on the 200-800Hz range first. Check out this quick how-to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaIvzbV40MM

5) "So i recorded the guitars, bass and vox at my house." No mix technique in the world can fully fix any issues with the way the instruments were originally recorded, if there were any. Have you gone back and listened to the raw tracks? Are they up to your standard? Were the mic'ing /recording fundamentals solid or are you trying to overcome shortcomings with the raw materials?

My other band recorded drums and guitars at TNT..
I brought the tracks back home just to fiddle around with it...
I could do a DECENT ROUGH MIX in 10 mins.
Like i could get the oommhh the ahhh and the bomb...!!!​

The reason this is probably the case is because all of the instruments were mic'd and tracked by a pro. Tracks with a good fundamental sound need less "fixing in the mix" and thus it's easier to get a good sounding mix out of by definition.

5) Getting a good drum sound in a mix is probably second only to vocal recording/mixing in difficulty. This is a very complex topic but the August issue of Music Tech magazine (which maybe can still be found at Times if you hurry) has a GREAT 10 minute tutorial article on how to mix drum tracks.

Good luck!

M

 

[l0u5y]

Muddy = too much low frequencies.

I guess u noe wat removes low frequencies.

 

[Tharenii]

You guys are the most amazing people ever!
You guys did not teach me, you guys PROMPTED me to explore myself...

AND IT WORKED!!

honestly, thank you.
Its the frequencies...
balls! THANKS PEOPLE!! really really thanks alot!!

 

[scylla019]

eh tharen. muddy means some instruments are sharing the same frequencies. try sidechaining or compressing some of these interfering freqs.

 

[CogitoAngMoh]

Glad things are working out for you....there are a lot of smart, talented folks on this board, that's for sure. I've learned a lot here myself.

Listened to your stuff on MySpace btw. I think you guys sound pretty darn good and I'd be interested to hear what an experienced studio hand could do with you guys...I"m sure it would go a long way. Scrape that cash together and get in there and record more!

 

[Destructos]

Remember also that what sounds right to your speakers in your room/hall/kitchen(?) may not translate well to other systems.
Audition the mix in your mp3 player with crap sounding apple earbuds that the rest of the world seems to be willing to pay 40 bucks for then swap to something better.
Then take it to a commercial "hi-fi" system and if possible, listen in your friend's car as well.
Compare your mix with a CD album of a band that your clients want their sound to be like each time.

So that you will have an idea of what other frequencies to cut/boost to make it sound more uniform throughout.

 

[xployd]

hey man. i think the problem lies in the EQs of the drums or watever else thats in ur mix. it sounds muddy cos everything is jam packed frequency wise. Wont get into too much detail cos it'll only confuse but think about these;

quoted from 'http://www.l2pnet.com/drum-mic'

Snare and rack toms
Fat at 200 Hz, crack at 5 kHz. If the sound is too tubby, cut around 200 Hz. A "small room" reverb is currently popular on the snare.

Floor toms
Fullness at 80 to 100 Hz.

Cymbals
Sizzle at 10 kHz or higher. Roll off the lows below 500 Hz to reduce low-frequency leakage (unless you're miking the whole set with the overhead mics).

Kick drum
Boost at 2.5 kHz to 10 kHz for click. Filter out highs above 9 kHz to reduce leakage from cymbals. To remove the "cardboard" sound, cut at 300 to 600 Hz.





something like that. EQs, man. EQs. hehe. nail this and ur master mix is gonna sound 'in place'.