controlling max volume/output

[carboxymoron]

I'm starting to play with more feedback, looping, multiple delays and such, and sometimes it gets out of hand and I have to quickly cut everything down... which is quite annoying So I'm wondering if there's a good way to control just the maximum volume/output at the end of my effects chain?

Compressors can probably do the job but I don't need the other "features" or changes to my sound that a compressor will cause. I tried to find out about some limiters but I'm not sure how they work. Does it just clip the sound above a certain volume, like the opposite of a noise gate? Or are there any that can limit volume beyond a specified threshold without compromising the qualities of the original signal too much? Not sure of the proper terminology but in my layman thinking it'd be a "soft" as opposed to "hard" limit.

 

[PatheinRaindropMoe]

theres a way to do it, but it might involved some form of parallel effect blending/mixing gadget.

http://www.toneczareffects.com/pedals-vfm.htm

check out the above for some idea first.

if not the above, another way to quickly cut off the outta control feedback/modulation going on, is to use a effect looper, throw the noise making effect into the effect loop , activate it as and when needed.

One of the advantage of the parallel blending thingy is that you can control via expression pedal, either full wet signal path to full dry signal path and anywhere inbetween. It can create multiple sound on sound moment, playing on top of looped phrase, feedback/modulation etc and with full control over the ratio of processed signal over dry signal.

For the effect looper, advantage is that its less hassle, but with less control between the effected sound and dry signal.

 

[carboxymoron]

Hmm, I was hoping for something I can leave on at the end of the chain... If not I could just use a volume pedal, but that's not the point The VFM looks very interesting though, thanks for sharing. Can really open up new possibilities. If I'm not wrong it blends two effects loops (two wet signals), not just wet/dry. Now I'm thinking about how to do this with a line splitter and a mixer... http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-m.../56274-adding-blend-guitar-effect-pedals.html That would be really fun. But I digress...

Effect loop is not much better than stomping the offending pedal(s) off, very abrupt. The point is I'm not looking for a way to manually reduce the output or cut it off totally, but rather have something that reduces output when it exceeds a certain threshold, hopefully not by slimply clipping the signal. So I can set the threshold / max volume, and then no matter how much crazy shit noise I throw in, the resulting output will be at a safe level.

 

[PatheinRaindropMoe]

yup yup, it can blend 2 effect loops or more as long the gadget can support. Hehe, pardon the dry wet description, am too used to the term even though in mind, i have it as couple loops of effect.

the mixer project thingy, one of the important concept that was mentioned was the use of a buffer circuit to split and blend together signal. The buffer circuit is the brain behind splitting signal into separate path and with full signal integrity over passive splitting which will result in lose of signal strength.

The point is I'm not looking for a way to manually reduce the output or cut it off totally, but rather have something that reduces output when it exceeds a certain threshold

for this, you can try a compressor with parallel blend knob built in. Barber tonepress is one of the few with such feature. It will blend the uncompressed signal with compressed signal. Setting can be adjusted via the knob onboard.

For using compressor/limiter at the end of the signal chain, do take note of the setting coz even though it will limit the signal from getting out of control range, at the same time, if you have certain setting to get the modulation/feedback over the top, the compressor will alter the reaction/feel of it.

The mentioning of effect blending is sorta a solution to it, in the way that if the out of control modulation/feedback is getting too much, you can blend a compressor into it, getting a ratio thats within control and not altering the overall feel/sound.

Oh, with such effect blending thingy, if you have a looper in the loop, other than bleding sound, you can fade in out pre recorded loops, record new loops over and thus having changes in sound as the music progress, without much stopping in between.

 

[carboxymoron]

Okay after reading more... I think I need to try out some compressor/limiter with threshold and compression ratio settings. If got variable attack and release time even better. The Carl Martin one looks good; does anyone have any experience with that, or any other well-featured compressors/limiters to recommend?

 

[PatheinRaindropMoe]

Most of the compressor in market for geetar effect are pretty much simple affair with couple knobs only. In a way, its easy to work with. For a start, can try out with the more commonly gotten ones(boss, mxr or digitech ones) and see how it affect your sound and whether will it fit in to what you wanna do.

hehe, recommendation of compressor, that one will leave it to others to recommend.

 

[p00n]

Might be closer to what you want, not sure about how tone altering it is though.

I personally use a BYOC 5 knob compressor after my feedback loop to control the master volume and use the compression to thicken and bring out details in the noise. I'm swapping it out for a cheap CS-3 because I need a buffer to prevent popping because of DC leakage, but honestly, just about any compressor works just fine.

I suggest having a dedicated compressor just for your feedback loops and oscillating delays. Keep them all in a TB loop with or without clean blend. I used to use a Barge Concepts VB-jr with an expression pedal, and it worked just fine. Allows you to kick the effect on or off or just subtly blend in some oscillating goodness.

 

[carboxymoron]

Thanks, I completely overlooked Boss, I thought there was only a Limiter/Enhancer with diff settings. The threshold and release controls could be what I want.

You have a VB-jr with the optional exp pedal input? The VFB-X looks damn tempting...

 

[p00n]

I think the Boss is the only pedal form Limiter. Anything else is rack or half rack sized and probably helluva more expensive.

Yup I have a VB-jrx fully loaded with all the options, phase inversion and expression. The build quality is ridiculously neat and professional. And there really isn't any other product that does expression controlled clean blend except maybe the Toneczar VFM, but you'll need to ebay your kidneys to afford that shit.

Only thing is that the dude behind Barge has gone MIA, so production has stopped for a long time last I heard. It's a shame cos they crank out pretty badass stuff. Their Meatball clone looks fantastic.

 

[Jumpin'Jellybean]

DynaComp is one of the most simple compressors i've seen. Two knobs and very easy to use. If you want something a bit more versatile there's the SuperComp. That is, if you're looking at simple compressors.

 

[carboxymoron]

That is, if you're looking at simple compressors.

But I'm not Thanks though. Most of them alter your dynamics or are marketed for the sustain. I'm looking at compressor in a more strict audio processing point of view: reduce volume above a specified threshold.

I actually found the Carl Martin Compressor/Limiter to have the controls I want:
Threshold: Working anti clockwise, determines how much of the signal will be compressed. This is also dependent on how much signal is fed from the instrument.
Comp: Working clockwise, determines how much compression is applied to the signal allowed by the threshold setting.
Resp: Working clockwise, determines the attack/release times, going from slow to fast. In general, if you want to hear the compressor working with a crisp attack you should use slow times. If you require just a silent limiting you should use fast times.
But... have to think hard about the price. Haha. Thanks again p00n, will look into the Boss...

 

[Jumpin'Jellybean]

Reduce volume?
Then wouldn't a volume pedal suffice? It simply just cuts volume and doesn't introduce any other effects.
The Martin works partially as a compressor doesn't it? So in theory, wouldn't it have some traits of a compressor? Such as improving dynamics and sustain etc.
A compressor is simply to make loud sounds softer and soft sounds louder. Give it a more consistent voicing. At least, that's what i read...

 

[carboxymoron]

Check this page out, good explanation of compressors and limiters: http://www.ethanwiner.com/compressors.html

Like I mentioned I'm hoping for a set and forget pedal. Of course a volume pedal has it's uses but I want the comp/limiter for technical reasons not creative use.

The Carl Martin is a compressor in the strictest sense. You can actually control how much compression is applied (compression ratio), and at what loudness does it kick in (threshold). The Boss Limiter should work in this way as well. But most of the more well known compressor/sustainers simplify this into one or two knobs that affect both loud and soft sounds and sometimes the attack and release as well. And they label it as "dynamics" or "sustain" or words like that... magic words that guitarists love But nobody knows what you're actually setting.

Hope I managed to explain what I mean... I'm also reading up as a I go along.

 

[Jumpin'Jellybean]

Whoa. Good link, thanks.

 

[carboxymoron]

Just a quick update on my "quest"... I've now focused my search for limiters to:
Pigtronix Philosopher's Tone (marketed as a sustainer, but supposedly great at limiting peak volumes)
Carl Martin Compressor/Limiter (Threshold, Ratio, Attack/Release, Gain. $$$...)
Maxon CP-9 Pro+ (Threshold, Ratio, Gain knobs. Another $$$...)
Boss CS-3 (modded of course. Easiest to find but kinda a last resort. Fixed high ratio should be okay for limiting)

So if anybody selling the first 3 choices, feel free to contact me

Also I found the mother of all compressor-related sites: http://www.ovnilab.com/
There's more than 150 compressors reviewed and answers to a lot of questions I didn't even know I had. Even though the writer works primarily with bass but I can't imagine a more comprehensive guide to comps. Hope others will find this link useful!

 

[theblueark]

Just to help you a bit on your quest. I'm using a setup with a lot of delays and I do a lot of swells. I have this at the end of my chain and it's always on. Helps to smooth out the swells and control the volume a bit.

If you want to try compressors instead, I highly recommend getting an optical one. These use an LED/LDR combo internally to perform the compression and they sound very very transparent. Almost seamless on and off, so with the right settings can leave on all the time.

The 2 that i've tried that are totally awesome are the punch factory

and goose's citrus which sounded almost exactly the same as the punch factory to me

 

[carboxymoron]

Just to help you a bit on your quest. I'm using a setup with a lot of delays and I do a lot of swells. I have this at the end of my chain and it's always on. Helps to smooth out the swells and control the volume a bit.

Wahhhh... I have a thing for old Korgs. But I expect it'll be near impossible to find one. They don't seem to make simple, no-nonsense limiters any more, be it the Boss LM-2 or this one... Nowadays all about the magic words sustain and punch. Makes me wanna punch someone.

 

[PatheinRaindropMoe]

hehe, dont punch yet, if you move over to the side of using laptop, midi controller and vst. Theres all form of compressor, limiter and a whole lot other effect to play with. With certain programs, can even code your own compressor and prolly any form of gadget as long the program can support.

 

[theblueark]

Man you're right. I tried looking on a few sites and the ones I found on sale are all Japanese sites like this:
http://www.digimart.net/inst_detail...78E18F21FDE5D7AD.rm1?instrument_id=DS00702778

It's a shame, if I remember correctly, these puppies are even true bypassed.

 

[carboxymoron]

hehe, dont punch yet, if you move over to the side of using laptop, midi controller and vst

I do some work with synths, but I don't think I'll be going MIDI with my guitar anytime soon. Prefer to keep the two separate as guitar is a good change from all that staring at my computer

Guess what Google dug up... the only Korg LIM-1 review on Harmony Central, by none other than goose