Between E-Mu and M-Audio

[adidasman]

Hiya all,

Got this 2 soundcard in mind. Any opinion on them especially the E-Mu as I have already read about M-Audio opinions from some of you in some other thread. I know E-Mu is from Creative but I guess that their reputation for their recording soundcards is none better than their gaming soundcards.

The 2 soundcards:
E-MU 0404
M-Audio Audiophile 2496

Extra opinion:
How about Delta 44 and Audiophile 192?

My budget range: S$300 for a soundcard.

Recording intrument: Guitar/ Bass/ other tweaking stuffs. Home base, single track per recording session.

Another thing is, I'm building up a PC specially for recording. Is it safe to say that I need to avoid a 64-bit PC? Coz nowadays they are becoming more common and need to be more aware of it when doing DIY PC.

Thanks.

 

[overcast]

Look at features 1st, e.g. if u don't have DI or pedal efx and would like to record your bass/guitar direct into the interface then get 1 with Hi-Z (instrument) input; get 1 with built in preamp to connect mics; need portability consider firewire/USB/cardbus. Narrow down based on features required 1st, then start looking within your budget.

Of course, if you're a rich kid then who cares, get anything that pleases your eyes and if it turns out it don't look cool anymore after 2 weeks sell it off for 1/2 price.

IMO, the drivers for the card is what matters most. A zillion features don't mean shit if the drivers don't work as promised or destabilise your PC.

Sound quality wise, check out the EMU range with the "m" behind the numbers. e.g. 1212m, 1616m, 1820m. They are supposed to have superior A/D converters.

A 64bit capable PC is commonplace nowadays. Remember the computer is only fully 64bit when the OS is 64bit too (when Windows Vista gets released in end 2006 projected). Your audio interface drivers would have to be a 64bit version too. M-audio already has 64bit drivers though I have not heard whether it actually works.

read up by googling for reviews/etc helps making a wise choice if $ is tight.

 

[lowjk]

>> Got this 2 soundcard in mind. Any opinion on them especially the E-Mu as I have already read about M-Audio opinions from some of you in some other thread. I know E-Mu is from Creative but I guess that their reputation for their recording soundcards is none better than their gaming soundcards.

I have the EMU 0404 and it is trouble free.
EMU's reputation is not in gaming soundcards although they consulted for Creative as a sister coy for the SB Live! and subsequent soundcards.

If you did not better, EMU's rep was in analog synths, then mid priced but feature packed samplers and then in ROMPlers before Creative bought them.

Note:
1) NEITHER the 0404 nor the 24/96 allows you to plug a guitar directly into the soundcard.

2) EMU 0404 can record at 24/192 but not the 24/96 (personally, I think this is academic because I don't even touch 24/96).

>> Another thing is, I'm building up a PC specially for recording. Is it safe to say that I need to avoid a 64-bit PC? Coz nowadays they are becoming more common and need to be more aware of it when doing DIY PC.

I would say - stick with nforce 3 motherboards with AGP ports for graphics card. PCI-E based graphics card fight for the bandwidth and may results in crackles and pops. (got this info from RME Audio website <- sorry out of your budget as they make relatively high end soundcards).

 

[adidasman]

Thanks for the words.

It is safe for me to say that in my existing setup, I don't actually record the instruments straight to the card. Some usual stuffs are usually used before sound inputting into the card like compressor/noisegate, preamp, some but minimal room accoustic efxs, 'amp modular' and the normal guitar efxs.

Haha, not a rich boy either. I have been stuck and persevere with a 16 bit SB Live soundcard inside a 766Mhz PC for 4 years now so since it is December now and the usual 'thing' is coming into the pocket (haha...you know what) so its time for a fresh change in setup.

My option is still clear. Will try google on these cards for more testimonial reviews about them as I got 5 days b4 weekend to scout for reviews.

AGPs graphics cards? Yeah... will add in 1 of those though not those hardcore gaming 512mb graphic cards. Maybe good enough for some small time photo editing/ website building purposes will do.

 

[overcast]

the nforce4 (PCI-Express) platforms' problems of low performances/choked bandwidth seems to have been resolved with the use of dual-core AMD X2 CPUs. It's still existing if you use single core AMD64s.
http://www.nuendo.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=7591

Creative is/was having a usual yr-end sale recently I read, but the EMU stuff only had marginal discounts. check their website for more.

if u can afford it, try to get a faster PCIE graphics card with >256MB video ram. Some bright harvard kid claims to have found a way to use 6-series Nvidia cards to run as a audio DSP card, i.e. run your plug-ins/vstis etc without taxing your cpu or buying DSP cards like powercore, though its release has been delayed more than a year now.

gd luck with your search.

 

[adidasman]

the nforce4 (PCI-Express) platforms' problems of low performances/choked bandwidth seems to have been resolved with the use of dual-core AMD X2 CPUs. It's still existing if you use single core AMD64s.
http://www.nuendo.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=7591

Heheh... I'll give the 64bit system a pass for now. They are still quite a new thing for me and I don't wish to dabble further more detail into their 'speciality' or technicality until all 32bit applications officially declare as 'extinct' as those dinos. Thanks for sharing the infos.

Creative is/was having a usual yr-end sale recently I read, but the EMU stuff only had marginal discounts. check their website for more.

Yeah, I miss that one coz the 'bucks' arrived late. Anyway, Cybermind at SLS is selling E-MU 0404 @ 189 sing bucks and Sinamex is selling M-Audio 2496 @ 180 sing bucks. It's a close and tough choice for cards at these range.

gd luck with your search.

Actually, the search could have been over when I found out the shop that is carryring M-Audio 2496 but thanks to some further readings in some of the threads in here, someone mentioned about E-MU... and haha... it has to go down thru severe 'technical' readings and reviews... plus not to mention loyalty to Creative product as they are serious lacking in product 'robust'ness (some experience with their products made me think twice on getting their products)... although I know E-MU is a just an expanded partner to Creative's extreme market soundcard dominant flagship.

 

[soft]

allow me to confuse you further on your search!! ha..ha....

Line6 Toneport - http://www.line6.com/toneport/

there's a sale going on at CityMusic and this is going for prices so low that i dare not print it here!

 

[lowjk]

the nforce4 (PCI-Express) platforms' problems of low performances/choked bandwidth seems to have been resolved with the use of dual-core AMD X2 CPUs. It's still existing if you use single core AMD64s.
http://www.nuendo.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=7591

I'm on X2 but still have to go with nf3 motherboards with AGP becaue nf4 boards have so few normal PCI slots.

THis might be useful reading for those comtemplating a Nf4 board.
http://www.rme-audio.com/english/techinfo/nforce4_tests.htm

 

[adidasman]

Aite guys....

On Wednesday 21st, I finally 'adopt' M-Audio Audiophile 192 as my new 'partner in crime'.

But I have yet to test it out since I'm in the midst of configuring my new PC Rig.... heheh...

Thanks for the inputs in here!

 

[adidasman]

Aite....

Finally did a test recording on this soundcard yesterday. Now come with my virgin so-called 'problem'.

My guitar went thru some hardwares like guitar efx, line in pre-amp, eq, another efx (mainly on light reverb) and a compressor before going thru M-Audio A192. My problem now is the level at the PC. The levels LED at hardwares (especially at the last component, the compressor) are almost hovering before distort level but on the PC recording audio level display shows lower than -10db... maybe lower than -15db. When I crank up the hardwares a bit more to distort level, the PC recording audio level hardly reach up even to -4db. I have gone thru the M-Audio software setting and can't see any other setting that might be giving this problem. Are there any other place that I have to take care of?

Or maybe, in the 1st place, is this a problem actually? Is it norm? :?:

 

[overcast]

you got to list out your hardware before help can get specific. Level meters on cheap hardware are not very useful/accurate. Use your ears. Does it sound distorted (unwanted distortion)?

The PC recording level is merely telling you that you are not clipping the A/D, which is a good thing. But -10 is too low, there is a lot of "headroom" left to make the A/D converters perform at their optimum. Aim for the highest you can go without the peak signals clipping (over 0). Try switching your M-audio driver for the balanced/unbalanced (a.k.a. +4dbu/-10dbu) input setting if it has one. See which one gives you a hotter input signal.

If it still sounds distorted, troubleshoot by going through your hardware, add each piece into the chain one by one. Set the input level to "5" (on a scale of 10) or unity gain if available, and work from there, increase the output level as much as possible without distorting the input stage of the next hardware device. Note that some devices like reverb tend to play better when used as a "send effect" rather than "insert effect" (something like serial chain).

For more on this do a google on "gain staging" and read up the manuals for your hardware gear. A lot of pple buy a lot of gear but too few actually know how to use them correctly and exploit their full potential.

if in the end 1) it doesn't sound distorted, 2) you got exactly the tone you want going into the soundcard 3) you observe proper gain stagin and the soundcard level still reads -10 or less:- Forget about all the technical shit and concentrate on the music.

 

[Indigo_blues]

maybe its your compressor output level..

 

[adidasman]

Hiya all....

My hardwarez lists, all in series line in connection (no miking), starting after my guitar:

1st Zoom GFX
2nd Behringer Mixer
3rd Behringer Preamp
4th Alesis Graphic EQ
5th Behringer Virtualizer
6th (last) Alesis Compressor

Yesternight, tried to get the level correct again and the highest I can get without distorted or rather clipping (since it is hd recording) was around -12db. Even when crank up compressor level up to the distortion level 2 or so, that was tha best db I got. All hardwares have been switched to 'Home Recording' level (you know, these switches normally find behind the equipments). And as for my gain for every equipments, I always tried to hover them around -8db (guitar soft stroking) to -4db (guitar hard stroking). Not too radical, I guess.

I don't think it can be the compressor fault or so since when I got direct right after my Zoom GFX to the PC, the level are almost the same. I also tried with my synth going direct.. same result. These are the same setup when I use with my old PC with its lousy soundcard and the level then was easy to control...can even have distort level on the PC with my compressor within the safe level.

I have also tried looking around for driver configuration (hardware config, driver config etc) but the only place seems where all the control for this soundcard is only from 1 program which was on the systray. Their manuals only have brief explaination.

if in the end 1) it doesn't sound distorted, 2) you got exactly the tone you want going into the soundcard 3) you observe proper gain stagin and the soundcard level still reads -10 or less:- Forget about all the technical shit and concentrate on the music.

Yeah, I agree with that too. Sometimes, some things are best to be heard by ears....except that I have never had any formal ear training on all these.... well ok, I can hear distort and clippings quite ok... other than that, if you ask me to hear whether that specific frequency is at what level just by hearing, I would go nuts. Heheh...

Anyway, I have tried a solution where after the guitar have been recorded, I amplify it to a safe level with software I'm using. Sounds ok.

Thanks for words guys. Will try to tweak more around here and there as right now, I got no 'project' to do so it's a good time for that.

 

[LuZeR]

You might already know this but for analog signals, if the signal peaks at 0dB, that same signal will peak at -20dB when it reaches your soundcard. It's an analog/digital conversion thing.

What u wanna achieve here is to get your analog signals to go over 0db as much as possible before distortion and your digital signal to peak at 0dB.

I suggest you adjust your compression ratio on your compressor so that the output goes over 0db as much as possible but just before signal distortion.

Also, may i know which Behringer Preamp you are using? Because if the Preamp has an instrument in and XLR out (in other words a DI box), i suggest you rearrange your device chain so that the preamp is right before the mixer. This is because the line inputs on mixer are not meant for guitar inputs. Their input impedances are not the same thus the guitar signal will be soft. Even if you crank up the gain on your mixer, you will be adding noise to the whole chain.

So yea, give this a thought!

 

[adidasman]

You might already know this but for analog signals, if the signal peaks at 0dB, that same signal will peak at -20dB when it reaches your soundcard. It's an analog/digital conversion thing.

What u wanna achieve here is to get your analog signals to go over 0db as much as possible before distortion and your digital signal to peak at 0dB.

I suggest you adjust your compression ratio on your compressor so that the output goes over 0db as much as possible but just before signal distortion.

Aite...will keep in mind for this 1. Thanks for informing me.

Also, may i know which Behringer Preamp you are using? Because if the Preamp has an instrument in and XLR out (in other words a DI box), i suggest you rearrange your device chain so that the preamp is right before the mixer. This is because the line inputs on mixer are not meant for guitar inputs. Their input impedances are not the same thus the guitar signal will be soft. Even if you crank up the gain on your mixer, you will be adding noise to the whole chain.

So yea, give this a thought!

I'm using Tube UltraGain preamp. I'm open to any feasible suggestion so I'll take your advice and will inform you of the result. Your suggestion has also given me some other 'evil' ideas to try....heheh... :twisted:

Thanks.

 

[RoRK]

allow me to confuse you further on your search!! ha..ha....

Line6 Toneport - http://www.line6.com/toneport/

there's a sale going on at CityMusic and this is going for prices so low that i dare not print it here!

I bought the Toneport UX2 during the sale and I am TOTALLY DISAPOINTED. The hardward switches off automatically EVERYTIME I play high notes with heavy distortion or simply running my plectrum/fingernails across the fretboard. 100% guaranteed that the hardware unit will switch off.

I've emailed Line6 but it's been close to a week and still no reply from them. I'll be bringing my unit back to City Music next week to see if my problems are due my unit being faulty or that's the way they built this sucker.

Cheers
RoRK

 

[overcast]

My hardwarez lists, all in series line in connection (no miking), starting after my guitar:

1st Zoom GFX
2nd Behringer Mixer
3rd Behringer Preamp
4th Alesis Graphic EQ
5th Behringer Virtualizer
6th (last) Alesis Compressor

Why do you need to run your signal through #2 & 3?

The signal coming out from your Zoom should already be "line level" i.e. loud enough to be recorded by your soundcard input. Whatever gear you add after a line level signal should ONLY be to alter the tone (via EQ, Compression, enhancer etc), and NOT to boost the signal level. Unless the Behringer mixer is used for its EQ and the Preamp somehow has some significant tone shaping qualities, I don't see them as necessary in your chain.

The reason why your signal is easily distorting is bcos there are too many unneccessary gain stages.

Fact: the less devices in the chain, chances are it will sound better. Simplify your signal chain as far as possible. Try using the EQ, Compressor and other efx built into your GFX instead of the additional Alesis stuff. Dig deeper into the features of each device and use as few devices in the chain as possible. You might find you can achieve a comparable, if not better sound just using 1 or 2 pcs of hardware.

If you insist on using all these hardware, use them differently. Run outputs of GFX -> Behringer mixer line inputs. Patch the Alesis EQ and Compressor into the mixer's insert paths (if there is one, if not patch GFX->EQ->Comp->mixer line inputs). Patch Virtualizer (assuming you are using it for reverb) to the mixer's send effects in/out and adjust send/return levels. Ditch the extra Preamp. Take mixer's output into soundcard inputs for recording.

And do read up on basic stuff like "send" vs "insert" effects, and terms like "line level", "mic level" etc. See links below.

http://www.rane.com/par-l.html#levels (also http://www.rane.com/digi-dic.html for the main "dictionary" page)

 

[Indigo_blues]

As already mentioned, its kinda weird to put the preamp after the mixer... its actually redundant in that position and it may be adding to the distortion. Hope you solve your problem. Cheers. :wink:

 

[jbarks]

eh.. sorry to steal the thread, but is the behringer fca-202 any good? I can't find any reviews on it. firewire, 2in/2out and headphone out.

 

[sj2six]

If you just want to know E-MU vs M-audio, get E-MU with the "m".