The Longest Post in SOFT History?
- Thread starter roninriot
- Start date
spug2guitarist
New member
nice read. i gave you some points. can give me some also??
(somebody took away my points for insulting arsenal. hehe)
(somebody took away my points for insulting arsenal. hehe)
Hey Levan, i really agree with ur "why the media doesn't support local music" statement. I guess nowadays, we are v spoilt and wanna be spoon fed, and we are living in a society that want INSTANT success without much hard work. Working smart doesnt mean u dun work hard too...
I called a band not too long ago for a mini gig for an event, and i was really digging wat i heard. I was excited to call them up, and i was v interested to find out wats their standard song list n all, n wanna tell them wat i like as in music wise... I find that the person was more interested in finding a big pay cheque and see if the event was BIG enuf for them to play at. I called him n ask if i called the right place cuz he sounded pretty clueless, then instead of saying yes or no, he said depends... The rest was just a big letdown, and made me wonder like wat u said "why dun the media support local music"
They werent exactly pro material or old bird doing shows, so i tot to myself, shldnt a aspiring local band try to get as many gigs as possible, instead of choosing n having a BIG ego?
I guess i said all that to say that HUMILITY is extremely impt, cuz ur not the only talent around.
I called a band not too long ago for a mini gig for an event, and i was really digging wat i heard. I was excited to call them up, and i was v interested to find out wats their standard song list n all, n wanna tell them wat i like as in music wise... I find that the person was more interested in finding a big pay cheque and see if the event was BIG enuf for them to play at. I called him n ask if i called the right place cuz he sounded pretty clueless, then instead of saying yes or no, he said depends... The rest was just a big letdown, and made me wonder like wat u said "why dun the media support local music"
They werent exactly pro material or old bird doing shows, so i tot to myself, shldnt a aspiring local band try to get as many gigs as possible, instead of choosing n having a BIG ego?
I guess i said all that to say that HUMILITY is extremely impt, cuz ur not the only talent around.
roninriot
Banned
Well I think it all depends on the situation.
Firstly, way too many bands play for free, and as such, as taken advantage of by a lot of organizers in Singapore.
Sometimes it IS in the bands best interest to discuss a fee when it comes to certain performances, though I agree that a fresh band needs to play a good number of shows to fine tune their live performances. But my theory has always been that organizers need to give bands a fair or decent amount of money since the organizers are using their services to draw in the crowds
A lot of organizers see local bands as a form of 'cheap entertainment' and yet insist that these bands draw a certain number of people to their event (thus giving the organizers more money while the band either doesn't get paid or is given 'free drinks' or something like that). Even the company I work for is guilty of such grievances. So it might not be a case of the band having an ego problem - it might be a case of them being cautious about organizers because they have fallen into the trap of negative past encounters and are on guard.
About humility, I believe it is possible to be humble while being confident, to be friendly to others while holding your own benchmark to success. I do find that a lot of the so-called 'indie crowd' in our scene tends to stick to their own, with an almost misguided mentality of 'we are us, they are them'. They draw a decent number of people to their shows, these bands support each other (Which is a good thing) but let's be honest here - they rarely go beyond their niche crowd, and 99.9 percent of our population doesn't give a damn if they reform or breakup.
With this post I am hoping to encourage the new generation of talented musicians here to think outside the box, and to think about how we can put Singapore on the international map of music recognition. We certainly do have the talent - there are so many young and talented bands in Singapore!
But the two constant things I find from meeting most of them is 1) an inbuilt pessimism 2) A distinct lack of understanding on the concepts of marketability and organized promotion to the eyes of the consumer.
Marketing and promotions is one of the most sadly overlooked elements of the local scene for years, yet it is crucial in its role of promoting our scene beyond just being a niche. Most musicians I've met have a very narrow perception of what this involves. Usually most of them think that performing in a huge number of shows will do the trick - but playing a 100 shows to the same 100 people won't be the ticket to putting Singapore on the map.
To do that, we have to look outwards, and we have to strive for higher standards of packaging, imagining, and marketing sensibilities that is on par with the musical growth we are experiencing. I know a lot of musicians say that they "do it for the passion of making music" and while that may be true, there is no musician who doesn't do it for the recognition, respect and support of their peers and fans.
The type of musicians I have a great disdain for are the cynical and jaded ones. They annoy the shit outta me simply because they have casted themselves as victims of their circumstance. I have zero respect for anyone who whines and complains about the lack of opportunities, yet do nothing to create new ones for themselves.
Starting a band with ambitions to succeed is just like starting a business - there is not much difference. If you want to start a successful company, you invest money, time, and commitment into it, just like a band. I am a firm believer that knowledge is power, and there is infinite wisdom to be learned from reading, researching and a pooling of resources. Yet I find that many bands in Singapore don't really take the initiative to do that. A lot just sit there and twiddle their thumbs, wondering what to do and hoping that by repeating the same methods and patterns over and over again, they might eventually hit something.
Another honest commentary I will make here is this; a lot of local bands have this huge end goal of playing Baybeats. Many young musicians feel that if they've played Baybeats, they've made it. I must admit I used to be enraptured by the idea of playing Baybeats a few years ago, even to the point of desperation.
But let's be completely and bluntly honest here; besides Baybeats, how many of the bands which play at the shows go on to continue with a continuous and sustained marketing that reaches out to the masses (beyond the indie scene)? The answer verges close to zero, with perhaps a few exceptions.
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roninriot
Banned
I might border on the brink of sounding brazen but I firmly do believe that we will benefit with a sustained effort to work our way outwards, as a collective.
For example, if Band A from Singapore wins over X number of fans from overseas, and Band B from Singapore approaches said fans with their music, is it not natural to conclude that if both the music of Band A and Band B appeals to the overseas fans, it pushes up the positive impression of Singaporean-made music in the eyes of foreigners?
And yet, why should we, as Singaporeans, bother about gunning for a greater overseas recognition and support? The answer lies with the very approach of the way our festivals are organized within our own country. We live in a society which heavily relies on external approval first before internal recognition begins. It's almost an inbuilt reflex in our people that we need the approval of external parties first before we deem something as 'cool'.
And here's another thing. In creating a buzz about the Singapore scene amongst foreigners, it creates greater opportunities for us as a collective. Just like an American or British band is a novelty to US, WE are the novelty act to them. There is no reason why we, as Singaporeans, are incapable of proudly representing Asia in the eyes of others. In fact, we have the added advantage of being a fairly well-educated nation amongst Southeast Asian countries - we are widely aware of world issues, we speak English, and we are competent in the areas of social awareness.
That is why I strongly urge bands to think beyond the safely zone of Singapore and why playing a 100 shows in the same venues and to the same fans is a very short-term gain and little more than a momentary surge in interest. We need to revamp our scene, throw out our early 2000s perception of promotions and geographical limitations, and work outwards in a renewed approach The Internet is one of the key tools in doing that, without a doubt.
So whoever is reading this (Though I doubt that many will, considering how dreary the topic is compared to say, talking bad about GNR), do take the time to consider some of the points made in the original post and add your fresh and energized ideas to it.
I have an intense love for the local scene here, and have immense respect for a lot of the great musicians that inhabit our little nook on our sunny island. I'm sure many, many SOFTies feel the same. And that is why we must take these active steps together in heading towards not just the resurgence but the reinvention of our scene in the eyes of both the locals here and the international recognition that awaits.
Less bull talk, more action.
Levan
P.S. James will not sticky this cause he feels that I'm too much of a loose cannon on these safe and wholesome forums occasionally marred by trigger-happy conditional censorship that brinks on tyrannical moral governing (a striking resemblance to the ruling patterns of the all-whites!) i.e. The one thing that separates him and me is a little set of bones collectively referred to as a spine.
For example, if Band A from Singapore wins over X number of fans from overseas, and Band B from Singapore approaches said fans with their music, is it not natural to conclude that if both the music of Band A and Band B appeals to the overseas fans, it pushes up the positive impression of Singaporean-made music in the eyes of foreigners?
And yet, why should we, as Singaporeans, bother about gunning for a greater overseas recognition and support? The answer lies with the very approach of the way our festivals are organized within our own country. We live in a society which heavily relies on external approval first before internal recognition begins. It's almost an inbuilt reflex in our people that we need the approval of external parties first before we deem something as 'cool'.
And here's another thing. In creating a buzz about the Singapore scene amongst foreigners, it creates greater opportunities for us as a collective. Just like an American or British band is a novelty to US, WE are the novelty act to them. There is no reason why we, as Singaporeans, are incapable of proudly representing Asia in the eyes of others. In fact, we have the added advantage of being a fairly well-educated nation amongst Southeast Asian countries - we are widely aware of world issues, we speak English, and we are competent in the areas of social awareness.
That is why I strongly urge bands to think beyond the safely zone of Singapore and why playing a 100 shows in the same venues and to the same fans is a very short-term gain and little more than a momentary surge in interest. We need to revamp our scene, throw out our early 2000s perception of promotions and geographical limitations, and work outwards in a renewed approach The Internet is one of the key tools in doing that, without a doubt.
So whoever is reading this (Though I doubt that many will, considering how dreary the topic is compared to say, talking bad about GNR
), do take the time to consider some of the points made in the original post and add your fresh and energized ideas to it.I have an intense love for the local scene here, and have immense respect for a lot of the great musicians that inhabit our little nook on our sunny island. I'm sure many, many SOFTies feel the same. And that is why we must take these active steps together in heading towards not just the resurgence but the reinvention of our scene in the eyes of both the locals here and the international recognition that awaits.
Less bull talk, more action.
Levan
P.S. James will not sticky this cause he feels that I'm too much of a loose cannon on these safe and wholesome forums occasionally marred by trigger-happy conditional censorship that brinks on tyrannical moral governing (a striking resemblance to the ruling patterns of the all-whites!)
i.e. The one thing that separates him and me is a little set of bones collectively referred to as a spine.
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roninriot
Banned
MORE USEFUL RESOURCES FOR BANDS RAWWWWRRRR!!
Bands should also check out
http://hoooka.com/
This is a unique MP3 selling system that is really hassle free to set up. The interesting thing about this online MP3 sale is that it actually helps your FANS to earn money too!!
For example, a fan can put a widget on his or her MySpace, Facebook, etc page advertising your music, and whomever buys your music through that widget gives the lions share of the sales to you, but a small cut goes to your fan as well for making the actual sale.
What this does is encourage your fan to spread your music far and wide to his or her friends in hopes of them making some extra dough for a nice extra meal
www.zazzle.com
This is a dream come true to bands struggling to come up with initial setup fees for merchandise. What this online shop does is prints products on demand. Bands can set up an online shop for FREE, and create and design their own products online. Then fans can come over to order these products and have them shipped to their doorstep at no hassle to the band. The band takes a cut of the profits of the sale. Zazzle handles all the shipping and returns and the best part is there will be no situation of excessive leftover products. Products are printed and shipped per demand. Products have a wide range from T-shirts, jackets, hoodies, mugs, stickers, posters and many many more!
What this means for bands is this; no money necessary, only profits. You don't have to come up with ANY MONEY, WHATSOEVER.
Perfect solution for bands with a tight cash flow
Also check out similar e-shopping sites
www.cafepress.com
www.spreadshirt.com
Levan
Bands should also check out
http://hoooka.com/
This is a unique MP3 selling system that is really hassle free to set up. The interesting thing about this online MP3 sale is that it actually helps your FANS to earn money too!!
For example, a fan can put a widget on his or her MySpace, Facebook, etc page advertising your music, and whomever buys your music through that widget gives the lions share of the sales to you, but a small cut goes to your fan as well for making the actual sale.
What this does is encourage your fan to spread your music far and wide to his or her friends in hopes of them making some extra dough for a nice extra meal
www.zazzle.com
This is a dream come true to bands struggling to come up with initial setup fees for merchandise. What this online shop does is prints products on demand. Bands can set up an online shop for FREE, and create and design their own products online. Then fans can come over to order these products and have them shipped to their doorstep at no hassle to the band. The band takes a cut of the profits of the sale. Zazzle handles all the shipping and returns and the best part is there will be no situation of excessive leftover products. Products are printed and shipped per demand. Products have a wide range from T-shirts, jackets, hoodies, mugs, stickers, posters and many many more!
What this means for bands is this; no money necessary, only profits. You don't have to come up with ANY MONEY, WHATSOEVER.
Perfect solution for bands with a tight cash flow
Also check out similar e-shopping sites
www.cafepress.com
www.spreadshirt.com
Levan
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basically, i dun mind paying and didnt expect to get them play for free. IN fact, i believed that i made myself v clear that they will be paid, and i asked for wat they charge. Im very ok with paying, and HOPE THAT PPL DUN ABUSE THEM N PAY THEM FOR GOODNESS SAKE!!! but i guess its the attitude n the way they were only caring abt how much $ there is, and how big the gig will be...
This is where i felt disappointed. U wanna start, no matter how gd u r or how confident u r, u have to be prepared to put in HARD WORK and start from the bottom. U cant expect instant success, and cant have a big big ego n attitude.
Honestly, they r not pros, and in a way i was taking a risk too getting an amatuer band and giving them the stage n opportunity. BTW, they were expecting mkt rate for the gig too, which im ok paying but the attitude was just unbearable.
I dun wanna get into the details lah, if not divert too far alr from ur posts.
BUT, i just saw crossroad dvd from clapton. N in the 2nd disc, steve vai came in to intro an indian musician. I usually skip it cuz i didnt bother to listen to that guy play, but the other day i watched it and really enjoyed it. THEN i saw the backgrd, other musicians were talking among themselves, but u see a dude with arms on his hips STARING attentively, concentrating n listening n learning from an indian musician. Mr steve vai
This is where i felt disappointed. U wanna start, no matter how gd u r or how confident u r, u have to be prepared to put in HARD WORK and start from the bottom. U cant expect instant success, and cant have a big big ego n attitude.
Honestly, they r not pros, and in a way i was taking a risk too getting an amatuer band and giving them the stage n opportunity. BTW, they were expecting mkt rate for the gig too, which im ok paying but the attitude was just unbearable.
I dun wanna get into the details lah, if not divert too far alr from ur posts.
BUT, i just saw crossroad dvd from clapton. N in the 2nd disc, steve vai came in to intro an indian musician. I usually skip it cuz i didnt bother to listen to that guy play, but the other day i watched it and really enjoyed it. THEN i saw the backgrd, other musicians were talking among themselves, but u see a dude with arms on his hips STARING attentively, concentrating n listening n learning from an indian musician. Mr steve vai
theunknown
New member
like they say, learning is a never ending journey.
btw this thread is a permanent bookmark in my mozilla.
btw this thread is a permanent bookmark in my mozilla.
roninriot
Banned
Weiht, I understand where you're coming from And you're totally right; it's important for musicians not to skip the steps that are necessary in building up a good foundation. That's why I agreed with James points (in a previous post) about having to improve the foundation first. I believe that building both these aspects of the scene + a new approach to marketing will be key to improving the standards and the level of recognition of our collective!
MORE RESOURCES!
www.drtmastering.com
Good quality mastering on a good budget!
Based in the US, this guy has been a mastering engineer for years.
A lot of bands who master overseas pay by the THOUSANDS, while on the flipside, local mastering techniques often can't compare to the full-fledged mastering suites from overseas. DRT Mastering is a great compromise - good quality for a good price! We personally worked with them and are very satisfied with the results and the price we paid for it. Prompt, efficient and a very pro-indie approach to working. You should check them out!
www.indie911.com
Aids in distributing your physical CDs, selling digital downloads, podcasts, ringtones and also contacts for film & TV licensing in overseas projects. Check them out!
And you're totally right; it's important for musicians not to skip the steps that are necessary in building up a good foundation. That's why I agreed with James points (in a previous post) about having to improve the foundation first. I believe that building both these aspects of the scene + a new approach to marketing will be key to improving the standards and the level of recognition of our collective! MORE RESOURCES!
www.drtmastering.com
Good quality mastering on a good budget!
Based in the US, this guy has been a mastering engineer for years.
A lot of bands who master overseas pay by the THOUSANDS, while on the flipside, local mastering techniques often can't compare to the full-fledged mastering suites from overseas. DRT Mastering is a great compromise - good quality for a good price! We personally worked with them and are very satisfied with the results and the price we paid for it. Prompt, efficient and a very pro-indie approach to working. You should check them out!
www.indie911.com
Aids in distributing your physical CDs, selling digital downloads, podcasts, ringtones and also contacts for film & TV licensing in overseas projects. Check them out!
roninriot
Banned
If I will have to keep posting to keep this thread on top to make more people start to pay attention to these points, I will!! I don't know what exactly it will take to get people to rethink their approach to music promotions here but I am dead set on making sure it starts. I can barely even come up with 5 bands who have put themselves on iTunes - the #1 digital retailer in the world with gazillion customers. And hey, it's free.
WHAT is it about the scene that is holding most musicians back from embracing this new era of Web 2.0 technology that can be used to further their careers AND making a decent living from it? Is it too time-consuming, too daunting, too risky, too unheard of, too hypothetical, too untested?
Anyway...
MORE RESOURCES
http://www.printfection.com/
http://skreened.com
More Zazzle / Cafepress-like shops to consider creating your band merchandise on WITHOUT financial capital with a good share of the profits.
WHAT is it about the scene that is holding most musicians back from embracing this new era of Web 2.0 technology that can be used to further their careers AND making a decent living from it? Is it too time-consuming, too daunting, too risky, too unheard of, too hypothetical, too untested?
Anyway...
MORE RESOURCES
http://www.printfection.com/
http://skreened.com
More Zazzle / Cafepress-like shops to consider creating your band merchandise on WITHOUT financial capital with a good share of the profits.
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theunknown
New member
maybe its about not having enough confidence. you know, feeling intimidated by the fact that the big names are in Itunes and they are not ready or aren't even confident enough with their material. like someone said, the first chance you get is the biggest. you made a material, you dont think its good enough. once people hear you for the first time and its substandard, they arent likely to listen to your second attempt.
maybe 2nd reason: old fashion, yes someone said that too. depends on word of mouth, free shows that go on forever.
3rd reason: plain lazy
4th reason: cant be bothered
5th reason: spending too much time in online forums instead of promoting themselves.
maybe 2nd reason: old fashion, yes someone said that too. depends on word of mouth, free shows that go on forever.
3rd reason: plain lazy
4th reason: cant be bothered
5th reason: spending too much time in online forums instead of promoting themselves.
flip22er
New member
How can you know if you are good enough unless you try though? The worst thing in the world is not failure, the worst thing in the world is not even trying in the first place because you fear failure!
Music is changing, the world is becoming smaller, you are no longer hindered by the fact that you are half way around the world. The way things are going record companies are going to have to drastically reinvent themselves because the old school way of signing bands is ancient and quickly being surpassed by new technology.
Music is changing, the world is becoming smaller, you are no longer hindered by the fact that you are half way around the world. The way things are going record companies are going to have to drastically reinvent themselves because the old school way of signing bands is ancient and quickly being surpassed by new technology.
theunknown
New member
yeah man with technology age here, im not surprised if Itunes or similar corporations become music producers themselves.
roninriot
Banned
Still not gonna let this thread die. I'm stubborn that way. I don't give a damn if a bunch of old-school pessimists skim over this thread as long as the ones who matter are reading it.
This thread will be constantly bumped to the top until everyone reads it and takes it seriously.
MORE RESOURCES (To win more fans!)
www.infiniteadds.org
www.maxadds.org
www.fastaddz.com
Not the most classy way to win fans BUT where there are big numbers, there will be a number who will turn to you and love what you're doing, especially if you're young and fashionable. Expect your daily friend requests to hit the 300 range once you sign up to them.
But you still have to address them individually, not by the masses.
I don't give a damn if a bunch of old-school pessimists skim over this thread as long as the ones who matter are reading it.This thread will be constantly bumped to the top until everyone reads it and takes it seriously.
MORE RESOURCES (To win more fans!)
www.infiniteadds.org
www.maxadds.org
www.fastaddz.com
Not the most classy way to win fans BUT where there are big numbers, there will be a number who will turn to you and love what you're doing, especially if you're young and fashionable. Expect your daily friend requests to hit the 300 range once you sign up to them.
But you still have to address them individually, not by the masses.
