Real alternatives to sound modules (software)

Cheez

Moderator
Personal history - started on keyboards, moved into modules, moved into sequencing, moved into softsamplers, sold all my hardware. Now, I'm basically using softsamplers for years doing sequencing.

But I'm considering moving one more step further - into live-performance using software. I know I've been posting this for many years. And I've performed live with my softsamplers many times. But one thing was amiss - all my arrangments were pre-sequenced. I can play live on my instruments, but softsamplers have limited capabilites for real-live applications. This has changed in the recent years. Now, I believe it is possible. Not only possible, but software provides MORE control real-time than keyboard synths or workstations. And it also provides more realism than any hardware available (which we already know).

OK. Here are the alternatives. Before I start, I want to show what it means to be using software live using real-time control that you cannot achieve using hardware. Demo by none other than Jordan Rudess himself using MOTU Ethno Instrument (if you guys haven't already watched it - thing to watch for is keyswtiching and crossfading which is a very standard thing in software we use all the time):

http://www.motu.com/products/software/ethno/videos.html

You can watch their MOTU Symphonic Instrument - video also by Jordan Rudess. OK. Now the news is this - MOTU instrument is really the lower end of the virtual instruments out there. It sounds good basically because Jordan was playing them. There are better ones. Ready....

1. East West Colossus. ( http://www.soundsonline.com/Quantum-Leap-Colossus-pr-EW-164.html ) In the past, I made a comment saying this product is a flop. Now I had to take my word back. It is not. If you look carefully, it has 32 GB (not MB) of samples ranging from everything you have in a hardware module/synth + purchaing other hardware expansion cards. This is 595USD but can be worth something like an XV module full SRX expansion cards - and still more powerful, more polyphony, more realism, more control, and more sounds. Uses Kontakt engine.

2. MUSE ( http://www.sonivoxmi.com/ProductDetail.asp?Item=CDMuse ) This has 38GB of samples, also ranging from everything you ever need in a hardware. Check out the video and see how simple it is to stack and layer instruments. It uses Gigastudio virtual instrument engine (GVI). If you want to program crossfading or keyswtiching of different instruments for live performance, it's as simple as a few clicks. Also 595USD.

Either one of the above 2 will give you something like Roland XV + all expansions cards or Yamaha MOTIF XS + all expansion cards or Triton + all expansion cards - except of course it is more powerful and playable/controllable than hardware. However, if you think you need more analog sounds, my suggesions is something like:

Arturia Analog Factory. (http://www.arturia.com/evolution/en/products/analogfactory/intro.html)
This combines most of the sounds you would use from their minimoog V, moog modular V, prophet V, ARP 2600 V and Prophet VS. So you get most of Arturia's analog sounds in a simpler interface and lower price (249USD).

As a keyboard player, I'm pretty sure programmability and controllability are some of the main points in live performance. I can still remember the good old days with my modules, and I had to program my A70 with different performance patches, each with multiple zones and each zone with different controllers (complete with both expression pedal, switch pedal, mod wheels and faders control) so I can play percussion, strings, keys and other lead instruments live without sequencing. My standard ballad performance patch looks something like this: piano sound from piano module (midi channel 1), e-piano from another module (midi channel 2), strings from module (midi channel 3) - strings volume controlled by expressin pedal; G7 is suspended cymbal roll (on my 76 note controller), F#7 is wind chimes, E1 is tympani rolls.

Now I believe this can be achieved with software live without prior sequencing. And it will cost less than S$2000 - the price of a module.

Comments?
 
Now I believe this can be achieved with software live without prior sequencing. And it will cost less than S$2000 - the price of a module.

Comments?
Hi Mr. CHEEZ, thank you for the valuable info.
this is good news for the consumers
but this will also narrow the gap of
hobbyist amateurs and professionals.

so for the professionals, it is indeed
a real challenge to draw the line between
amateur and the pro by using music skills
than owning racks of gear.

myself as a conservative person I'll still use
hardware for performance for the time being.

software instr are good for music production.

however, when it comes to software, there is
always the problem of piracy. people lime-wiring
here and there for MP3 files and next software,
so in the end what's left ? the quality and standard
of music will drop.

the budget and cost of producing a good music
album drops, all we will get is crap music in future.

Just recently after I layout and upload demos to
MySpace, I happen to browse through Sheena Easton
Official MySpace site; I play the familiar hit 'Strut'
and to my surprise I realized how well
and good is the song produced.
The song uses a lot of real instruments
with the basic drums programmed.
The brass section is fantastic !!!

So here in line of budget and cost, being
affordable doesn't necessary means good news.
IMHO...

check out:
www.myspace.com/eastonsheena

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=44021393
 
Bongman, there's truth in what you said. However, I think there will always be distinction between good and bad music. There's no way we can stop bad music flooding everywhere. With software like Garageband, anybody can come up with music and post it in Myspace. And as you said. the distinction between good and bad music is never about the type of gears being used, software or hardware. It is always about skills - skills in playing the instruments, in arrangements and in writing. I agree with you entirely on this point.

Even if people are using real instruments, it can still sound terrible if it is played and arranged badly. And there are music like these out there too!

So I agree with you, tools will only be tools. They help us, and that's great. But I think the gap between amateur and pro musicians will never be narrowed - you can always tell the difference between the two (and as you said, it does not depend solely on the tools). An amateur armed with a Korg Oasys will still sound like an amateur - no matter how expensive his tools are. One thing that we cannot stop is all kinds of music happening in download sites. The mp3 generation has grown and is unstoppable.

Anyway, back to the software I'm mentioning. Wouldn't you consider it if it helps your live performance, making it easier? I'm still looking for the best available live performance alternative. Hardware lets me do it - but I will need lost of modules and lots of wires connecting between them. And I'm still limited by their capabilites. I thought of Albeton Live, but there are still limitations in how it can help me do live performance. I've even considered Yamaha Tyros (don't laugh!) because of it's live capabilites, but there are still limitations (the cost being the biggest factor...). Then comes software that now lets me layer multiple instruments and trigger each on by using keyswitch and mod wheels - without polyphony problems. If the tool serves the purpose, then I would consider the tool. The problem I have with sequenced music is the difficulty in live situations when something unexpected happens. Singer misses a beat, and everything goes down the drain. That's why I'm constantly looking for tools for live performance without me having to bring along racks of modules (since I usually use at least 4-5 different instruments in one go played by myself).

What do you think?
 
But I think the gap between amateur and pro musicians will never be narrowed - you can always tell the difference between the two (and as you said, it does not depend solely on the tools).
with current software tools, maybe certain skills can be overriden with technology? things like loops have helped to make things easier? less drum programming to be done?

I've even considered Yamaha Tyros (don't laugh!) because of it's live capabilites,
the Tyros and higher range of the PSR series are good for 2 piece performance like a keyboardist with a vocalist. I've seen such setup in clubs, normally for happy hours or hotel lounge.

That's why I'm constantly looking for tools for live performance without me having to bring along racks of modules
are you giving up your day job to be a performing night bird ?
 
Yes, I find loops an unfortunately development in music, although there may be places for it. But then, when you hear a loop, it will always be a loop. Drum loops will always be drum loops - lack of versatility. There will always be a distinction, in my opinion.

No, not giving up my job. I've always been playing live on various occasions. Will let you know if I found the solution to live keyboard performance.
 
Yo, I guess you are right!
After reading this month keyboard magazine
and computer music magazine - WOW!

So many varieties of software virtual instruments !!! ???

Ivory grand piano US$349 (about S$550)
from Synthogy !

Is it good ???

Most soft synth are between US$200-400,
just like buying a specific purpose rack.

Looks like investing in a high powered computer is better !!!
 
Ivory is not bad. But there are better ones, although some of them require Kontakt or Giga. You can get up to 96 samples/note for some of them! Yamaha keyboards only has 3 samples/note. The difference is drastic!
 
96 samples/note compared to 3 samples/note ???

wow! thatz a whole lot of difference ?!

3 x 88 = 264 times ?!
one day 10 samples can finish in a month

96 x 88 = 8448
you mean this is the number of times to sample a grand piano ???
how do they do it ? it makes make wonder???
 
for me i feel analogue modelling should still remain hardware, planning to get a waldorf or an virus later this year. you still want that origianlity and fatness of the sounds these hardware produce.

however samples such as quantam leap strings lib, and maybe those BDF drums do attract me. i tend to stray away from guitar library personal thing hahas. dont feel that strumming can be emulated thats why.

well i gonna work this holidays for 4 months and save up a whopping 6K gotta either get an analogue sythn or those samples lib from eastwest. hahas. i wish i can get both. sponsership? :p
 
Bongman, sorry, made an error. The current largest piano library has 93 samples/note. They are from sampletekk - TBO (the big one) and the 7 Seas Grand, both Yamaha C7s. 31 velocity samples per note, sampled with pedal down and pedal up, and matching release samples (the resonance when one lets go of a key).
 
This is something I've found very interesting to me at the same time "elusive". I guess what I'm more referring to is how to show technology in the live performance setting?
I've been organizing this inter-school music tech competition for 4 years now and have always tried to incorporate the use of technology in a 'live' situation (at least for students' level). U can have a look at some video of last year's Primary and Secondary school winners in my website http://www.musictec.net to get a better idea what it's all about.
This year, the finals will be in August so now, many schools are preparing for it. :)
Of course, this is NOT in the same league as what Cheez is talking about, but at this level, we need to "nurture" them up to higher levels, so a lot of of patience is required to get students up to levels that we would LIKE to see! :lol:
The setting for each member of the ensemble is basically a MIDI keyboard interfaced to a PC (usually P4 with 512Mb), where they will use software like Cakewalk, etc as a "front panel" to set their sounds, and perform their songs 'live'.
Last year, we had the schools using Sonar running VSTs of GM modules (most common for most schools), as well as SFZ, loaded with various soundfonts that could be triggered (triggering is ALLOWED in this competition) and some softsynths. There was also one school that used the 6 PCs, controlled by their 6 MIDI kbds, each running Reason 3.0 too! 8O
This year, I expect a few more new stuff coming on. For one, we're allowing ONE of the performers to use an alternate controller (drum pad, turntable, etc) as well. This is to distinct this whole thing from being a "Keyboard- technique" competition. :) Would welcome any suggestions from y'all too, but do think of "student-level" ideas! :wink:

Bongman:
One thing that cannot be emphasized enough, imho, is that when prices of s/w reach the masses, it doesn't mean that the masses can suddenly be able to perform, compose nor think like the professional - agreed? :)
My analogy is in Desktop Publishing:
It's reached the masses (all of us who are not printers, at least) where to make a beautiful, colourful greeting card is only a few clicks away. But does that mean we don't have a need for printers anymore? No way!
Similarly,what "desktop music" does is allow the masses to drag and drop loops to make nice grooves that gives "instant gratification" but beyond that? Is there a good musical structure to the song? Does it have a nice, memorable melody? Witty lyrics? Good vocalist? Cheaper software doesn't give us THOSE. Musicality is STILL NEEDED here! :p

A lot of times I get enquiries for our courses and when asked (by the enquirer) which software we use in the course and we say, Cakewalk/Sonar, a typical reply would go , "oh, I've got that software already. so what else can I learn from you in this course?" :? Note: Our course doesn't say it's a "Learn the Features in Cakewalk" course, but "MIDI Production" course, mind you! So when I asked if they knew how to, say, assemble the various instrumental make up of a Bossanova rhythm in multitrack (using Cakewalk), the response would sometimes be, "hey, that's interesting! I can do that in Cakewalk ah?"
*vomit blood* :p
This always reminds me of those 70s "kung-fu" movies: "If I steal your master's secret kung-fu scrolls it means I would be able to MASTER all the techniques in the scrolls and can return to fight your master next week!!" :lol:
Think they forgot to tell mention the practicing bit! Or if the instructions weren't too clear that you need to "stick your palm above the head or just under the chin" is enough AND there's nobody in your kung fu school to ask!! :lol: :lol:
Ok lah, figuratively speaking, but u get the point. :wink:

Sorry about getting OT!

QF
 
Hey qfactor, the competition looks interesting! One question though - what is the criteria for point scoring?

I'll be back in Singapore during August, I would LOVE to see the competition this year!
 
The videos from your website - the primary school seems better than the secondary school! I'm impressed. Secondary school just showed more keyboard skills. But primary has more innovation in their use of midi. At least one girl is seen as using the mod wheel - although she didn't have to cross her hands like that!
 
Sorry about getting OT!
nevermind about getting OT,
Soft man James Woo will pay OT (overtime) for it !!!

what "desktop music" does is allow the masses to drag and drop loops to make nice grooves that gives "instant gratification" but beyond that? Is there a good musical structure to the song? Does it have a nice, memorable melody? Witty lyrics? Good vocalist? Cheaper software doesn't give us THOSE. Musicality is STILL NEEDED here!
oh! I'm glad this is so, and if it is so, my years of hard work may not be going down the drain becos of technology advancement ?!

more to tell, I happen to know an award wining pro photographer, he did mentioned that technology had advanced now with sowftare like Photoshop and others; he needs to make his work very distinctive to show his clients they are worth paying him to do the job.

'realtime' lightings with big big lights can easily be replaced using software features but he said there is a big difference in the results.

ok liao, OT again lo...
 
Hey qfactor, the competition looks interesting! One question though - what is the criteria for point scoring?
I'll be back in Singapore during August, I would LOVE to see the competition this year!

The competition consists of a Preliminary Round and the Grand Finals. In the prelim, students only need to submit a (MIDI) file of the arrangement. From there, I will usually "dissect", with a presence of an external judge, their files to get a general idea HOW it was created. Step Time, Quantizing, clicking in of notes, drawing velocity curves, etc are all allowed here. From there, those shortlisted for the finals will be asked to come for an audition, where an external judge will question them on specific bars of their songs and how (and who) they did those specific bars.
In the past, we've "caught" some schools who DOWNLOADED a MIDI file from the 'Net and submitted that, with copyright messages and all still intact!! :lol:
Last year, a school used a drumbeat (Copacabana) they downloaded from the 'Net but did the rest of the music themselves. When questioned how they did the drums, they confessed....but had to be disqualified (as our rules state that NO downloading allowed).
So this year, I expect some schools may still try this :p *sigh*

As to the criteria, these are mainly creativity, musicality, use of technology/tone colours points that judges would score in. I've since removed keyboard technique from the criteria because of the way I had wanted the competition to go - NOT to be a keyboard "technique" competition! :wink:
One of my main aims was to enable students who are MUSICAL (but no kbd technique) to take part.
Eg. for the primary school video, that boy you see at the beginning of the video, was triggering soundfont loops (drumloops, voice loops, guit loops, etc). He's a violin student and has no kbd experience at all. But I figured, even if they ONLY trigger sounds, STILL have to trigger them AT THE RIGHT TIME, so that involves practising with the rest of the team as triggering wrong sounds (or not at all!) or wrong timings, can bring down the whole ensemble! :roll:

In fact, that's why I was asking around here for a pro DJ, as I'm looking for one to be a judge for this competition. In the past, I've found that I had gotten too many KBD-based judges and due to their "inclination", they tend to "favour" keyboardist who display impressive kbd technique. Some of the past "known" judges were ppl like Iskandar Ismail, Sydney Tan & Babes Condes besides other music-based personnel from the Ministry of Education, etc.
Will let you know about the tickets to the finals. It's usually FOC, but is distributed in schools only. :)

QF
 
Some of the past "known" judges were ppl like Iskandar Ismail, Sydney Tan & Babes Condes besides other music-based personnel from the Ministry of Education, etc.
wow! you got big names as judges !
Talking about Sydney Tan, I bought a Yamaha TG77 with 2 cards from him at a rock-bottom price 2 years back, so generous of him !!!
Will let you know about the tickets to the finals. It's usually FOC, but is distributed in schools only.
any chance to let any of us here in SOFT to get the tickets to see the up and coming musicians in Singapore ?
 
My suggestion qfactor, since it is a competition focusing on midi and technology used in instruments, equal weightage should be given to creative use of electronic instruments as much as musicality/arrangement. One could easily sequence a piece 90% and then play 5-10% of it live. And there's no way you can be sure the sequence music is actually done by them. Same for arrangement - you can never tell who actually arranged the piece. While musical arrangement of music is important, how they actually use the instruments is important. I agree, playing well should not be the main criteria. A very good keyboardist can play well, but if the piece shows little knowledge of creative use of the instruments, it doesn't do justice to midi and technology which you are trying to show here.

For example - 5 players, each player playing one patch throughout the piece with little use of midi and midi controllers - it only show that the 5 players are good keyboardists but they may only know how to turn the on/off button of the keyboard and knows how to play together. It shows nothing in terms of midi skills.

If there's only 1 player, that player uses 1 keyboard, and uses extensive control to swtich between program changes, use various midi controls, and doesn't rely too much on pre-programmed sequences - this actually show that person is more creative.

Agree, should allow other midi instruments, including wind controllers, midi guitars etc - the key is not the instrument used but the use of midi and technology!
 
My suggestion qfactor, since it is a competition focusing on midi and technology used in instruments, equal weightage should be given to creative use of electronic instruments as much as musicality/arrangement. One could easily sequence a piece 90% and then play 5-10% of it live.!

Oops! I forgot to mention this part to you in my earlier msg too. Yes, I agree with you here and because of this issue, since last year's competition, another criteria, for the finals, is that ALL MUSIC performed can only be made by the performers themselves, 'LIVE'. No backing sequence allowed here. Hence, if they have a "heavy" piece, full of orchestration but only have 4 players, then they'd have to figure out how to re-create all parts WITHOUT the use of sequence, since the sequence bit has been pre-judged in the preliminary already. That's the reason why that boy in the video was triggering all those loops - to simulate a sequence but "played live".
I know this will not gauge them on sequencing anymore, but it got a bit "out of hand" in the past competition when a lot of the backing sequences started to be done by their teacher/trainer, etc that there's nothing to show that's the students' abilities anymore! :oops:

If there's only 1 player, that player uses 1 keyboard, and uses extensive control to swtich between program changes, use various midi controls, and doesn't rely too much on pre-programmed sequences - this actually show that person is more creative.

Yes, I'm waiting for the day we can see these from STUDENTS!! Ha,ha! :lol:

QF

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Yes, it will be nice to have tickets for some of us to go. Backstage also OK. If not, then at least a video footage of the entire competition will be nice.

Great job organising this.
 
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