need advice on midi recording (Yamaha CP300)

[tmliew]

Hi, I own a Yamaha stage piano CP300. It sounds very good when I record and playback on the piano speaker itself.

However, if I transfer the midi file to computer digitally and burn the music to a CD (to play on a hi-fi), it sounded awful with very poor sound dynamics.

Does anyone know how I can improve the sound when recorded and played on hi-fi?

Thanks

 

[carboxymoron]

When you transfer the MIDI file, you are only transferring the note information (what note is being played when, and for how long, plus a few other parameters). You are not transferring the sound (in this case the patch on your CP300 containing the piano sounds).

In the first place, you can't just burn a raw MIDI file to a CD and play back that MIDI file on a hifi. So can you provide more info on the process and what software you used?

 

[tmliew]

=carboxymoron

I use the bundled software Steinberg cubase AI4 to convert to audio file.

 

[kongwee]

Cubase AI4 do not have the same sample as the CP300, maybe. You can buy some third-party piano sample(which can be costly).

 

[carboxymoron]

Did you try playing back the MIDI file on your computer using Cubase? It would've sounded different from the playback on the piano itself. So the MIDI instrument that is selected in Cubase will determine the sound. You want to find better piano samples instead of using the default instrument (which probably sounds like a toy digital piano).

Here's one I found with a quick search... haven't used it though http://www.yohng.com/software/piano.html

 

[tmliew]

=carboxymoron

Your description of "toy digital piano" is head-on. That was exactly what I heard.

I will try the suggested link and see.

Are there any known good sample for use with Cubase AI4? And how do I get them?

 

[blueprintstudios]

nice cp300
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/music-production/stagepianos/cp/cp300/?mode=model

1) what you transferred is the ".mid" file. like what carboxymoron has mentioned. only records the playing/notes. not the sound. at this stage you have total control importing into a DAW which you can even fix notes and change chords via keyboard and mouse etc. or just re-record and "punch in" cut'n'paste.

2) when it goes into your computer, it no longer has your yamaha cp800 sound, it'll play its default referenced "windows general synthesizer" (assuming you're using windows) or VST instrument assigned to your soundcard/DAW.

3) here's how I do it if you want the hardware soundmodule "sound of the piano" :

a) you would need to buy a cheap audio interface with midi ports and 2 preamps. something like presonus audiobox usb
http://www.presonus.com/products/detail.aspx?productid=53
you can find more audio interfaces at www.citymusic.com.sg www.hungbros.com www.sinamex.com www.luthermusic.com , a few other like esden trading at simlim square.
connect this audio interface's MIDI ports into your CP300. (In/Out accordingly)
connect the 2 preferably XLR (or 1/4") output from the CP300 > Audio Interface channels 1 and 2 (L/R)

b) Play your master piece. (! : at this stage you may opt to just simply record your playing to .wav sound and skip the midi routing option. but make no mistakes in your playing) , you can opt to record to onboard yamaha's storage or record straight into your DAW via midi track/audio interface or i believe there's a MIDI>USB interface on the cp300.

c) import .mid into DAW. do your necessary velocity adjustments/quantizing etc. finalize it. Assign this MIDI track to OUTPUT INTO YOUR CP300.

d) suddenly the haunting begins, your CP300 plays by itself (from the midi file), now set the CP300's volume output to 50%-75% and preamp levels right on your audio interface so it doesn't clip/overload/distort (hit 0db at loudest point)

e) record your midi playing (converting .mid into .wav using the yamaha cp300's soundmodule)

f) you can compress/eq/reverb (mix). adjust to taste. export out as 44.1khz 16bit. wav . careful not to do 32bit as CD don't recognise that.

g) burn cd. enjoy and get relief from your purchases of 2 midi cables, 2 audio cables (XLR or 1/4") ,audio interface and a slight pain in the butt from doing all that configuration for the first time I assume.

 

[blueprintstudios]

forgot to add, both XLR and 1/4" will work. but for convenience and upgradability. and you can get 1/4" or XLR cables anywhere, I bought my midi ones from citymusic, and I think a good bet for audio interface is for you to call up all the shops I added the previous post link and enquire.

1) XLR means next time you can buy a versatile microphone like AT2020 to pair off with your audio interface for vocals recording

2) 1/4" means next time if you're also a guitarist, then you can record 1/4" DI into the audio interface using a guitar amp simulator VST plugin.

3) buying a 3rd party high quality piano sample software is good, but that nullifies the purpose of your CP300's soundmodule turning it into a "midi controller".

 

[Cheez]

As to your question on piano samples (should you want to venture down the softsampler/VST road) - relatively cheap are the Sampletekk's pianos. There's a discount currently, I believe. Sampletekk's pianos (of which I have a few of them) are not the best (they don't have sympathetic resonance like Ivory/ Galaxy/ NI pianos etc, of which I owned quite a few of them as well), but they are also lighter on CPU and RAM as a result (not to mention, cheaper).

I like the Yamaha CP300 (the touch, the build-in speakers), but I don't like the piano sound in the CP300/ CP33 (as is with most Yamaha's keyboard pianos - esp the higher ranges). That's personal preference (although I must say I've owned more Yamaha keyboards than Roland to date, the latter of which piano and acoustic instrument sounds I prefer way more than Yamaha). But softsampler pianos blow them all away.

There are lots of piano samples out there. You can do a google search on the list I'm going to give you (price also differs) - Ivory 2, Galaxy, Native Instruments, Vienna Imperial Grand, Garritan's Steinway, Pianoteq, East West Quantum Leap Pianos (I think it's on discount now as well, but still costly), Truepianos, Sampletekk (quite a few pianos there), Art Vista Grand Piano, Toontrack's EZkeys (latest library out in the market, which I've voiced my unhappiness over it in another forum thread) etc. They are all made different, even though the piano model may be the same.

If you're a piano sample freak like me, then you may want to slowly build your library/arsenal of piano sound for different genre/arrangements. Between all the different libraries, I have several Yamaha C3s, several Bosendofer 290s, several Steinway (C and D models), uprights, grands, some taxes CPU/RAM heavily, some light etc. Each one is used for different setting - depending on the music and how the piano fits in it in terms of tonality, colour etc. For recording, I almost NEVER use hardware keyboard sounds (even if it's Roland). Few reasons: sample piano sounds are way better than most hardware keyboard sounds; everything is recorded internal in the PC which bypasses audio line in/out thereby minimizing all the issues you face with recording a live instrument. If I were to record live using mics, I would record a REAL piano, not a hardware keyboard with piano sound. A real piano still breathes life that cannot be replaced - but I'm going off-topic already...

 

[kongwee]

I know mda piano vsti quite ok and it is free!

 

[tmliew]

As to your question on piano samples (should you want to venture down the softsampler/VST road) - relatively cheap are the Sampletekk's pianos. There's a discount currently, I believe. Sampletekk's pianos (of which I have a few of them) are not the best (they don't have sympathetic resonance like Ivory/ Galaxy/ NI pianos etc, of which I owned quite a few of them as well), but they are also lighter on CPU and RAM as a result (not to mention, cheaper).

I like the Yamaha CP300 (the touch, the build-in speakers), but I don't like the piano sound in the CP300/ CP33 (as is with most Yamaha's keyboard pianos - esp the higher ranges). That's personal preference (although I must say I've owned more Yamaha keyboards than Roland to date, the latter of which piano and acoustic instrument sounds I prefer way more than Yamaha). But softsampler pianos blow them all away.

There are lots of piano samples out there. You can do a google search on the list I'm going to give you (price also differs) - Ivory 2, Galaxy, Native Instruments, Vienna Imperial Grand, Garritan's Steinway, Pianoteq, East West Quantum Leap Pianos (I think it's on discount now as well, but still costly), Truepianos, Sampletekk (quite a few pianos there), Art Vista Grand Piano, Toontrack's EZkeys (latest library out in the market, which I've voiced my unhappiness over it in another forum thread) etc. They are all made different, even though the piano model may be the same.

If you're a piano sample freak like me, then you may want to slowly build your library/arsenal of piano sound for different genre/arrangements. Between all the different libraries, I have several Yamaha C3s, several Bosendofer 290s, several Steinway (C and D models), uprights, grands, some taxes CPU/RAM heavily, some light etc. Each one is used for different setting - depending on the music and how the piano fits in it in terms of tonality, colour etc. For recording, I almost NEVER use hardware keyboard sounds (even if it's Roland). Few reasons: sample piano sounds are way better than most hardware keyboard sounds; everything is recorded internal in the PC which bypasses audio line in/out thereby minimizing all the issues you face with recording a live instrument. If I were to record live using mics, I would record a REAL piano, not a hardware keyboard with piano sound. A real piano still breathes life that cannot be replaced - but I'm going off-topic already...

Cheez, when you use the VST piano samples, do you record in midi format, copy to computer and use a software to play the midi with your VST? Or do you record through other means?

I used a few free piano samples to play my midi files on computer. But the effect can never be compared with the midi being played on the CP300 internal speaker. It is less richer in sound, limited dynamics, appeared "ji liab ji liab" (in hokkien, or each notes appeared discrete and not sustained). In other words, it sounds like those cheap electric piano and no where close to a CD quality recording sound (unlike the CP300 internal piano which sounded fantastic). Is this related to midi recording files in general, or is this related to the settings on my computer software?

 

[Cheez]

Which piano samples do you use? Most free ones out there are junk. It's very difficult to find good free samples. Go through the list on my post above. Most of them are way superior (except Pianoteq - which I really don't like, although it's really light on CPU). Also, the CP300 has a very good build-in speaker system. So depending on what speakers you use to listen to the piano sample, it will sound pretty much different to the CP300 through the internal speakers. Best way to compare is via headphones. Trust me. Once you use a good sample, you'll never want to play keyboard piano sounds ever again!

I always record in midi. I never use my keyboard sounds. What I usually do (which is what most people would do):

1. Practice first using the VST sound triggered within the DAW software. You need to know that each piano sample is different requiring different playing techniques - very much like playing different pianos which also require different playing (touch, pedaling etc).
2. Record (ie sequence) in midi within the DAW.
3. Playback. In places where playing is not up to par, I record that particular section again (everything in midi). I never quantize - esp piano! It's not just for expressiveness and realism. It's also because when you sequence, you are recording the pedaling. This is unique to piano sequencing when pedaling can be complex and timing of pedal on/off/repedaling is crucial. The timing of pedaling with the notes messes up when you quantize. Also, the notes we play almost never fall together in split second accuracy (deliberate) - the beauty of playing the piano is the occasional rubato esp when playing slow pieces. The only time I may quantize is when sequencing drums. Piano - never. It will sound robotic. Occasionally, I would delete the few wrong notes - done very carefully without messing around with the playing.
4. When I'm happy with the sequence, I just render it to wav internally within the DAW. This step is done without me playing.
5. The wav file is then put into the mix as an audio track. I freeze/mute the midi track so now I playback only the recorded audio track.
6. Mixing and mastering is done using the audio track.

 

[Cheez]

Kongwee, the Yamaha CP300 piano is better than the mda. I can even hear the looping points in the mda piano.