(jazz theory) the V13 chord

[pianomankris]

Ok so another chord to chew on, this time the dominant 13 chord.

I've read so many different ways of thinking about this chord, and it's actually one of the easiest jazz chords, albeit an extended chord (extended in the harmonic sense, I mean).




Ok here's how you play it:

LH = R and b7; RH = sus2 chord a tone above the root



So, C13 would be played as C and Bb in Lh, and the RH would play a Dsus2 (D E A).

PS the sus2 shape is a very basic shape, and it should be known first (obviously) before trying this chord. sus2 is 1 2 5 from the relative major key e.g. Csus2 = 1 2 5 in the key of C.

PS this is the 'standard' jazz voicing. Don't worry about upper closed voicings or anything like that just now. Go with this for the time being, and we'll cover the other voicings at a later stage.



Usage

As said, this is a V7 substitute chord. In other words, you can use it instead of the basic V7 chord. In the key of C, the V7 is G7. So, you could play G13 instead. Once again, try adding it to a song you know. If you have a V7 chord, try the V13 instead.

(G13 would be G and F in the LH, and an Asus2 in the RH).



(Ps for the complaining ogres (lol) who wanted rootless voicings, this chord can be played in the LH alone. All you do is think of the sus2 a tone above, and add the b7 as the lowest note. This form is commonly fingered 5 3 2 1).



Fingering

LH 5 and 1, RH 1 2 5

Or anything else that feels comfortable But 1 2 5 is the standard fingering for a sus2 shape.



Practising

Practise this chord through the cycle of fifths, and the cycle of fourths.

Here it is written both ways:

C13
G13
D13
A13
E13
B13
F#13
C# (Db)13
Ab13
Eb13
Bb13
F13


C13
F13
Bb13
Eb13
Ab13
C#(Db)13
F#13
B13
E13
A13
D13
G13



--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chord naming

PS this is an aside just in case some people don't know this already.

If a chord is written in the form of letter/number, it is a dominant chord

e.g. C7, C9, C11, C13



If a chord says major after it, or has a triangle after it (common in jazz), it is a major chord. If a chord says nothing after it, it is also major.

e.g. G, Gmajor 7, G major 9 etc





If a chord has a small 'm' after it, or a minus sign, it is a minor chord.

e.g. Cm, C-7, C-9

NB sometimes 'min' is also used

e.g. Cmin9

But the common jazz way is the minus sign.

 

[Cheez]

Yes, I love the V13! An alternative way to look at it:

One would often see this chord used - IV/V (chord IV on bass V). V13 is similar to IVΔ7/V (not entirely the same, but very similar - only missing some notes from the V chord).

And my personal favorite (a variation and spew-off from V13): the V13 (♭9 ♭11). I use it very often. It is often followed by IΔ9. Eg: G13 (♭9 ♭11) - ie with A♭ and C♭ (or B). There's something about the semi-tone resolution that makes this particular progression "smooth" (F to E, A♭ to G).

 

[iansoh]

would like to draw attention to a few things; firstly i believe there's no such term as flat 11.

secondly, G F Ab B E need only be called G13b9, i.e. 1-3-7-b9-13. on the other hand, as pianomankris wrote, his dominant13 chord incorporates the 9th. officially, the dominant13 is defined 3-5-7-9-11-13. however this full voicing is not very applicable. hence the existence of 'shell voicings'. 3-7-13 is the shell voicing of 13th chord.

may i add, it is pointless to name chords down to the specific note. moreover, in jazz-playing the pianist is expected to apply his own alterations to the chords, or voice the chords in his own way. hence it is sufficient for chord symbols to remain simple and vague. the onus is then on the pianist to know several ways to voice G13b9 and choose an appropriate voicing based on the desired sound.

 

[pianomankris]

.may i add, it is pointless to name chords down to the specific note. moreover, in jazz-playing the pianist is expected to apply his own alterations to the chords, or voice the chords in his own way. hence it is sufficient for chord symbols to remain simple and vague. the onus is then on the pianist to know several ways to voice G13b9 and choose an appropriate voicing based on the desired sound.

And how would this help people to learn jazz?

You're pretty much saying 'No point in learning specific voicings, as anything goes'. To me, that's just ridiculous. Feel free to teach someone your way of learning a V13 chord. Create your own post on the subject. I'd be interested to see your approach on teaching someone how to play a straight V13 chord. The only way to learn HOW to play jazz in the first place is to learn specific voicings for each chord type. The freedom comes once all these voicings are known inside out.

Forget about b9 etc - there are formulas for those also. That's a different issue.





PS - to everyone else who wants to learn something - here's a second voicing for the V13 - take the open voiced 6/9 chord, but play R and b7 in the LH.

There you go That one's simple.

 

[Cheez]

Iansoh, point taken. Flat 11 is unusual indeed. But then, theoretically (which we are talking about now - theory), it makes sense. Of course, the other way would be to put write it G13b9 -11. And yes in practical terms, you may omit certain notes, which is the other way around it.

 

[pianomankris]

Cheez - I was wondering if you meant #11 when you wrote the chord.

Is that what you meant?

#11 would make more sense, as b11 is just the major 3rd.

 

[vernplum]

Hello from guitarland!

I love the 13 chord and the fingering I use on the guitar is (G13 chord shown)

3x345x

A caveat I learned was to be judicious with it. When I first learned this chord I was using it everywhere I saw a 7 chord which my teacher pointed out wasn't always the right thing to do. Usage, he told me, depended on the context, i.e. was I playing solo guitar, was I supporting someone singing or playing the melody (in which case my extensions might clash).

 

[kongwee]

Ballad also can use.
For arp, your RH will run 1-3-5 the first time and 2-3-6 the second, back to 1-3-5 or any inversion.
This technique work very well with 1/16th beat syncopation runs.

 

[Cheez]

No kris, I meant the flattened 11th. That's why iansoh pointed out rightly that in practical terms, not every note need to be included. Because if so (theoretical terms), the chord will need to have an 11th note. So in practical terms, it's really omitting the 11th. In theoretical terms, it's flattening the 11th making it, well, sort of redundant (hence as iansoh pointed, doesn't "exist"), and as you pointed out, it's just the 3rd note.

Well, perhaps it's just better to call it V13 b9 -11. Also a close relative of IVdim7/V.

 

[pianomankris]

Cheez;

Could you give me the full voicing of your chord, from lowest to highest note, indicating which notes are to be played by which hand?

Cheers.


PS I was going to get on to alt chords and the such - at the moment, i'm dealing exclusively with diatonic jazz chords, as this is the easiest way to begin learning jazz voicings.

 

[widdly]

I'm not so sure about hard and fast fingerings for these chords. If you want to do any kind of voice leading then your fingerings are going to need to be very flexible. Chord changes will sound smoother if the notes move as little as possible.

eg.
G7 = g b d f
Cmaj7 = c e g b

The g and b are common so you can use the same fingering for each, the b can move a semitone to the c and the f can move up a tone to the g. That will sound nicer than moving a fixed shape up the scale and then lowering the seventh.

If you are practising a cycle of 5ths or cycle of 4ths using dominant 13th then you should try to stay in the one place on the keyboard instead of shifting up and down with each change. That way you will be forcing yourself to find all the different fingerings and learn to hear voice leading instead of transposition.

 

[Cheez]

G, B, D, F, Ab, (B), E (in key of C major).

 

[pianomankris]

If you are practising a cycle of 5ths or cycle of 4ths using dominant 13th then you should try to stay in the one place on the keyboard instead of shifting up and down with each change. That way you will be forcing yourself to find all the different fingerings and learn to hear voice leading instead of transposition.

No. Best to learn the one shape in root position (or whatever position the chord may be being presented in) for every chord before inverting the chord, as the basic shape should be 'seen' in the mind's eye first before trying to invert said shape.

Inverting the chords for the purpose of voice leading etc is the next step. As for now, i'm trying to teach people basic voicings of chords that they should be able to play in every key. All as the same 'form' of chord.

Voice leading comes after transposing the shapes has been mastered.


The rest of your post I have ignored as it doesn't concern the nature of the thread (e.g. common voicing of the V13 chord). PS don't take that as rude - it's just that the rest of your post was of no relevance whatsoever to the theory of the V13 presented in this thread.

 

[pianomankris]

G, B, D, F, Ab, (B), E (in key of C major).

This would be a form of a 13b9.

I'm assuming with the bracketed B you mean Cb, as you mentioned a 'b11'?

the only time a 'b11' could possibly exist is if the 10th (e.g. 3rd) was altered so as to allow the 11th to rest on what would be the 3rd.

And the only way this could happen is if the 10th (3rd) was lowered. If this was the case, a 'b11' chord would be referred to as a minor chord (as the 3rd would be flattened), rather than as a dominant chord, as the chord would be, theoretically, minor - even though the b11 is actually on the major third (but it wouldn't be considered the major third as you have called it a flattened 11).

On a more basic level, if the 10th was altered, then the 3rd below it would also be altered, as both would be derived from the same scale.



In the superlocrian scale, there is a b3 and a b4 present; however, this means that your naming of the note B (i.e. the second note of your chord) is wrong. Plus there would be no D present, as this scale has a diminished 5th. The chord would be diminished, and not dominant. But it -can- function as a dominant. But it wouldn't work in the case you presented, due to some of the other notes you mentioned from the chord.

The only other alternative that readily springs to mind is the eight-tone spanish scale. But there are similar problems in your naming of the note as a b11. Also, the harmony in this scale would be b5, rather than natural 5.

I don't see this chord therefore as a feasible way of thinking about a V13 chord, as it isn't a V13 chord.