Is there a problem or we have reach the maximum level

Lively discussion going on... Resurrection of an older thread!

OT on pianomankris' last sentence: I was just contemplating about writing a prepared piano piece. Concept popped into my head some months ago - got a few inspiration in my head. Of course, the main problem is that I can't get a prepared piano - and nobody is going to let me do "abuse" to their grand pianos by sticking things into them! I searched around for sampled prepared piano, and there are quite a few different types other than the standard Cage prepared. Still dreaming of writing something. Maybe when time allows...
 
Functionalism is a product of a world population boom. You are confusing two sparate issues here. Plus, if you researched the topic you are discussing, you would know that in many early tribal societies the dwelling houses were purely functional rather than being designed with aesthetics in mind.

Gee just because functionalism is a product of the population boom it doesn't exist?

You missed my point so I'll put it here again. 1-200 years ago, people were not materially rich as today. But they had more time (with the exception of a few really boliao people who nitpick on my every other sentence). So once they had the opportunity to make a piece of music (and this did not come easy at all) they would make it as creatively and ornately as they could. Now, every Tom Dick and Harry can form a punk band, so it's so easy to produce stacks of CD with 90% filler in them.


When you say classical music, do you specfically mean the classical era i.e. the era that ended roughly in the 1830's?

Once again, you are contradicting yourself. You gave the example of CD's above. Classical music is readily available on CD format - at the same price as other CD's. Not 'rich man's stuff' then, as today it is just as accessible as any other genre of music. If not cheaper, with labels such as Naxos releasing budget CD's of classical music - even contemporary classical music, making the whoe spectrum of classical music available to all who can afford to buy a CD.

Why bother asking when you already know what the answer is?

In those days you know as well as I do that classical music was the sole domain of the aristocracy. It was written for the rich, of the rich, though not necessarily by the rich. The fact that it can be bought cheaply by everybody hundreds of years later does not change that.


Define 'pop'. 'Pop' just means 'popular'. If the majority of the world listened to classical music, then classical music would be pop.

Any and every style is and can be 'pop'.

Well you just answered yourself again. I only neglected to mention that it is pop music of today. The fact is that pop music does have a character and not just any music gets to the top of the pop charts, so it is also meaningful to talk of it as a genre. In this day and age we will never see the majority of the world listening to classical music, although classical music gold records do exist. But let me know the next time Dumitrescu gets a gold record, yah?


I'll talk a bit about the Clash here.

Also, define 'simple'. Neurologically, any process of creating music is vastly complex, so in this respect there is no such thing as 'simple' music.

You should state whether you mean harmonically/melodically simple etc etc. And if you do mean this, then aren't these very terms relativistic?

Well there you go again, pretending to be confused but you know exactly what I meant, melodically simple.

But I'll illustrate with an example. When I first heard Beethoven's 5th, I knew it was a great piece. The first movement, it's incredible that you can wring so many ideas out of that same 1 motif. You hear musical ideas elaborated upon each other.

When I first heard the Clash, I didn't really appreciate how great it was. It's not easy, when you have simple song A and simple song B, to understand why song A is great and song B is "meh". But eventually I understood. And together with that, you have to understand why some earwigs are extremely powerful and others are just - blah.

Anybody can say that music that has been handed down from generation to generation is great, although some atrocities like Pachelbel's canon gets through. If you want to appreciate pop music, you actually need to seperate the chaff from the wheat, something you may not be accustomed to if you're into classical music.

I've come to believe that to say that you truly understand music, you have to be able to judge the merits of a simple song. So why is the Clash / Wire great but, Blink 182 / 311 less so? I'll leave you to find that out for yourself.

Who is looking down on pop music?

Aren't you showing your own bias against classical music in this comment?

My classical music teachers looked down on pop music. But I'll ask you the question instead, who's looking down on pop music? You're a sensitive guy, sensitive enough to detect a bias that doesn't exist.

Now let's get to the heart of the matter. You and I are answering different questions. I am asking, is today's music simpler? I say yes. You are asking, is there the possibility of making extremely complex music today, the answer is also yes.

I don't believe in calling contemporary classical music "today's music" or "our music" if it's only heard by a few. Suppose somebody 50 years from now were to make a movie of us. What would he put as a backdrop? Punk music? R+B / hip hop? Or would he put avant garde music? Well maybe the avant garde stuff will be put on when a burglar is coming in through the bedroom window but it's not "my music" for a lot of people today.

If you believe that music is not only about the producer / performer but also about the audience, then in order to call it "today's music", it has to exist in a vibrant enough scene, and there's a lot of exchange of ideas going on among a lot of people. Suffice to say, the communities where music is complex are not really large.

Maybe during the classical era, when the musical community was a small percentage of the population, you had a community made of a concentration of musical talent, did you have more complicated stuff running the show. As the musical audience and the group of musicians widen, then music just had to dumb down a little and follow the crowd.

Not having a market does not devalue music but it makes it more difficult to call that music "today's music".

Like I said, music space is becoming more and more crowded. If you confine yourself to the simpler music, the one that finds a larger audience, then the music space becomes smaller. If you write a song that's similar enough to something else being written, you aren't really adding anything significant to the canon.

If you go for the music that's so bewilderingly complex that nobody listens to, you could add something vital and fresh. But you'd be in a small minority, it's just your beetle in a box.

I could write a piece of music that asks for a note to be played once a year ad infinitum. The possibilities could then never be exhausted, as my piece of music isn't finished yet. And never will be.

You could do that, but is it useful? Is it something already written? Because if it's not written yet it's not written. Suppose I were to write something else with some other note being played once a year, that's too close to your piece of real estate in the music space, therefore hardly original. I used to think that it was absurd that people could be sued for infringing on the copyright of John Cage's 4'33. But he has the claim on the main idea - that so much of music is the silence, and what the brain fills in during the silence, so that idea is really his.

And in case you're unaware, punk bands have also been listening to 20th century classical music and incorporating them into their music. Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Igs7l4rr7I

And while I can appreciate the music of Messiaen and stuff like that, sometimes I listen to what's coming out of avant garde, and I think that 3 chords is still better than no chords.
 
This is a poor analogy. What about Gaudi's buildings? What about some of the structures being created in Dubai at present? What about the Petronas Towers? Sears Tower? How far back do you want to take your analogy? Shall we compare the average house of today to a mud hut?

Says it all doesn't it? You have to go to Barcelona and Dubai to find something that exotic. Petronas towers and Sears towers are simple structures. They're just, like, big, you know. Nowhere as finely ornamented as, say, the average hindu temple.

If you want an example to compare buildings built for the same purpose 100 years ago vs today, compare Singapore's old and new Supreme court. I rest my case.
 
Says it all doesn't it? You have to go to Barcelona and Dubai to find something that exotic. Petronas towers and Sears towers are simple structures. They're just, like, big, you know. Nowhere as finely ornamented as, say, the average hindu temple.

If you want an example to compare buildings built for the same purpose 100 years ago vs today, compare Singapore's old and new Supreme court. I rest my case.

I can't reason with, nor do I wish to reason with someone whose logic is on a level whereby they beieve that architecture is becoming simpler and less ornate purely because a new building in Singapore is aesthetically (in your mind) poorer than an older building - a building which, for you, represents a bygone era of a Romanticised ideal of all that is worthwhile in art, and consequently, in humanity, and that this is in any way analogous to contemporary music, whether it be pop, classical, or any other style.

You'll continue to hit a brick wall as every statement you have made consists of nothing more than crude generalisations, and arrogant comments regarding what is required in order to understand the 'true nature' of music. This is the same level of mindset i've seen in a host of kids who have walked through the doors of some of the schools I've taught at - a fixed mindset that is unwilling to actually listen to any opinion other than its' own. And I haven't met one kid yet with this mindset who has actually became anything in the field they profess to know so much about. Whereas the kid who realises he knows nothing of counterpoint, or dodecaphony, or schenkerian analysis, or acousmatic music, or a neapolitan 6th, or how to write a riff, or how to make 3 chords sound interesting, is actually the kid who goes on to make a career for himself in the field, as he is less concerned in pinning negatively the perceived flaws of what he sees as detrimental to his view of society and art as he is in actually advancing his own knowledge, and consequently, his own art.



This whole issue can be summed up in one sentence:

Music is more simpler than it has ever been. However, it is also far more complex than it has ever been.



Whether complexity/simplicity has anything to do with what constitutes 'quality' in a piece of music is another issue entirely.

As an aside, as a guitar teacher as well as a pianist/piano teacher, i'm no stranger to songs consisting of 3 chords. Nor do I think this demerits the intrinsic worth of the music.


The one showing bias here is yourself in the remarks you are making (and showing ignorance with your comments regarding Dumitrescu - he is one of the most respected composers alive today, and your comment implying that sales in some way defines the worth of a piece of music demonstrates the level of conversation we are having here).


By all means, continue to believe your view is the truth of the world. Should you wish to spend your days sitting in a field reading Goethe and contemplating the sun through the spaces in your toes, then that is your concern. But it doesn't mean your view has any worth, or any truth value.
 
Wow wow wow wow wow. You greeted my last 2 posts with the enthusiasm of a rottweiler greeting a postman (something quite uncalled for since my first post was most definitely not directed at you) and now you suddenly can't bring yourself to reason with me huh.

Yesterday I was biased against classical music and today I'm biased against modernist architecture? Wonder what I'll be biased against tomorrow.

I'm opiniated. Even towards music that I like, I can be very irreverent. I don't give a shit. You could call me a punk. But it doesn't mean that I've closed my mind, anywhere to the extent that you've closed yours. It doesn't mean that I'll ever stop learning stuff.

It puzzled me for a while why you of all people would castigate somebody else for holding an opinion, until I realised that it can be very difficult to see clearly with that head of yours stuffed up your ass.

I have said the most uncontroversial thing you could ever say about Dumitrescu, the one thing 100% of people can agree with: he will not sell millions of records. I do not say anything about the artistic merit of his music. I do not make any statements about any relationship between popularity and the artistic merits of the music, however fond you are of putting words into peoples' mouths. (For the record my position is: mainstream music is getting simpler over time. While a lot of complex music is made, it will always remain marginal / alternative. It most definitely is not "interesting music is no longer being made" which is the strawman you are currently attacking with all your might.)

Just a shame I never got to hear your opinion because all you ever do is nitpick on other peoples' posts. It could be that I might find myself agreeing with a lot of the stuff you say. But then again if I do find myself agreeing with you I just might change my mind again just for the heck of it.

As an aside, pls consider a change in career. You might already have damaged a few kids.
 
OK people. Feel free to view your differing opinions. Critique comments and posts. But please refrain from personal attacks or critiquing the person posting. We'll always have differing opinions. If everybody in this world has the same opinion as me, then it's really boring...

So forum etiquette 101 - respect one another please. Thanks!
 
It's a real pain - you talk to people like that, they don't offer up a coherent or opposing viewpoint, but they start splitting hairs with you. You saw that earlier exchange with ATW10C, it was painful to watch. ATW10C was making a lot of interesting points, they basically met with the back of pianomankris' hand. And suddenly I get this lecture from him about the ability to respect other peoples' viewpoints?

He needs help. Way too often he's reacting to perceived insults. I make a remark like, "people who look down on pop music are snobbish and stupid" and out of nowhere he raises his hand, "not me! I'm not one of them!". Who gives a shit? Who asked you?
 
The most important thing is to enjoy the music you play. All those music greats didn't start out wanting to create a new genre of music or revolutionize music. They just enjoy their craft, the creation of a new genre and etc came as a by product of their passion and enjoyment in the music they play.
 
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