Is there a problem or we have reach the maximum level

[vogue]angel

New member
*This is just my 2 cents, it's also for discussion purposes.

I notice that we are churning out alot of piano students with Grade 8 and so on. But I notice this is that although we have lots of prodigys, but I dont seem to see any new classical pieces that are being written. Have we really reach the maximum level or we just can't compose anymore new music in classical? ( I might be wrong in this)

So it comes back to the syllabus that are being thought, I was thinking is it because of our way of teaching n learning music that cause this decline or the government body like ABRSM and Trinity College are not encouraging this?

bout this prodigys, I think they are very good but I was thinking can they compose music like those great composers of old. Or these prodigy's are just being used as "tools" to show how great the teacher is. And normally, what happens to these prodigy's when they grow up?

any ideas?
 
Well firstly, Grade 8 is hardly a prodigy. It's dime in a dozen and tells almost nothing about the skills. Secondly, ABRSM/Trinity etc are focused on piano playing skills. Writing music/composition is totally different. Thirdly, there are modern day classical composers out there.

And lastly, we live in a different eras from the days of the classical composers. Composers get paid in those days. Today, we need to market the music. The market lies with the pop culture, and not so with the classical. Hence, I believe most of them are writing for film, one of the few genres that still apply proper musical theory.
 
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In readity, music scene here is very hash. Unless you are working close to this industry then you will know why.
 
Some things i agree and disagree with Cheez. Grade 8 is hardly considered prodigy. Many grade 8 people i know can hardly compose. Most of them rely on muscle memory and can only play pieces that they've practice for 12 months fluently. There are "modern classical" composers out there, but most people don't regard them as standard repertoire because no one can come close to Mozart and his contemporaries. Though, i find the term "modern classical" composers an oxymoron because isn't "classical" music supposed to be referring to music composed during the Classical Era? if so what do you mean by "modern classical" music?

Au contraire, composers back then didn't get paid to do what they do. it was out of passion and because they were so good at doing what they do, their livelihood depended on royalty and nobility hiring these composers and giving them shelter and food. They didn't get paid selling CDs, or performing live. it was kind of a contract-based agreement between the employer and musician. We have not, and will not ever "reach the maximum level. Music is ever-changing, always evolving..and also notice the standard of music now as compared to the past? Renaissance>Baroque>Classical>Jazz>Rock>Pop..(it's not an accurate history, i know. music evolution is parallel not linear..but this is roughly how i see it evolving..)

music is getting simpler and simpler..i don't really think it has "reached the maximum level"..
 
I don't think ABRSM teach about composing. Anyway, modern classical pieces get simpler cos it is how common people understand. I dunno how to put it. I take chinese traditional for example. 2000 year ago, many pluck and percussion can produce all the "12 note" in the modern music. Ancient chinese have their own music too. It is complex to read. Later Chinese music somehow love pentatonic scale and use very few key signature. Instruments were develop were much simpler. It reach a state teacher can teach by talking without much notation. People just love the tune and easily hum. It is easier to express life,nature,culture and feeling in this way. True Chinese music are easy to understand. There is a simple melody that you could understand.Untill 1950, chinese traditional music start to westernized and start to be complicated.

Personally, I like modern classical more as it is about expressing.
 
How difficulty to play a piece <> how nice the melody is.
The "skool" system focuses on difficulty not on nice melody.

Technology changing things a lot.
Take a look at this.
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=262303

Its the best harmonizer I have found so far. But the developer needs to get it to be able to play the chord in a lower octave.

In time to come, playing difficulty will cease to be meaningful and the focus will go back to nice melody. But even then, the desire to be seen composing music will be greater than talent or craft. So the current "focus" on rhythm and harmony at the expense of melody will perhaps persist.
 
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Yes, evident is right that I'm wrong... Actually, classical composers back then has other jobs. Bach was an organist and music director of St Thomas church in Liepzig. It seemed that he was in charge of the church choir, trained the choir boys, wrote music for church, and even taught Latin. Haydn was a music director as well and had his own private orchestra.

A number are performers in orchestras - virtuoso pianists and violinists themselves where they earn their living (Liszt, Rachmaninov, Bartok, Mozart who once wored for an aristocracy before becoming a freelance composer and performed his own works including his piano concertos). Others were conductors (Richard Strauss, Mahler). Still others taught music theory, orchestration, counterpoint etc.

No easy road for classical composers. Today, even worse. There has never been so many genres of music out there and classical is competing with everything else.
 
I have to disagree with almost eveything in this thread.

Is there nothing left to say in language because every word in the dictionary has already been used somewhere else?

There are thousands of modern classical composers - especially for piano.

To continue composing like Liszt/Chopin would be pastiche.



Evident - music certainly isn't getting simpler - it all depends on what you know and where you look - with regards to piano, try a piece such as Xenakis' 'mists' - it's an absolute nightmare. As is some of Rautavaara's music (check out his 'fire sermon' sonata). And some pieces by Lera Auerbach. And the Ligeti etudes. And most Boulez piano works. And Lowell Lieberman's 'Gargoyles'. And anything by Salvatore Sciarrino (madman) (check out 'de la nuit' - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRblh2kpN3g). And Feldman's 'Triadic Memories'. And Michael Finnissy's 'English Country Tunes'. etc etc etc this list could be huge. I have over 3 shelves of sheet music dedicated solely to 20th/21st century music alone, and could give you lists of publishing companies who focus solely on cntemporary classical composition.

RE classical composers and technology - once again, this list could be huge. For a start, what about Stockhausen??? Or Babbitt? Or take someone such as Ingram Marshall, who has been using technology as a compositional tool for years now - here's a piano example - http://www.last.fm/music/Ingram+Marshall/Alcatraz:+Ingram+Marshall/The+Approach - try also his 'Fog Tropes' (everyone should hear this piece at least once in their life) or his 'Gradual Requiem' to hear how technology can be part of the creative process in a classical context - and work.



The most advanced music theory is just as complex as the most advanced physics/maths etc etc, as for hundreds of years the greatest minds have been pushing the boundaries of what is possible - in every discipline.

The fact that 'simple' music is popular certainly doesn't mean that music is getting simpler. Far from it. The masses need something to chew on. And the masses are larger now than they have ever been. That which pushes the boundaries never finds precedence in the society of its' time.


I doubt classical composers really think that they are 'competing' - composition isn't about 'winning', even if the record companies promote what sells. That's just good business. Of the composers I know, none of them really care for recognition or sales. They don't compose for that. Take the late Giacinto Scelsi, for example. He wrote for himself with absolutely no interest in the public (here's a great piece by him - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GZgbt9sTcY).


To think the day of the piano is over is narrow and naive, and shows a lack of insight into contemporary classical music. It amazes me that it is thought by a few here that clasical music is getting 'simpler'.


(RE Chinese music and the pentatonic scale - the reason the pentatonic scale is condusive to 'nice' music is because the tritone occurs betwen the 4th and 7th degres of a diatonic major scale - these are the two notes removed from the pentatonic scale. Therefore, any note combination in a pentatonic scale will sound harmonious.)
 
Thanks for your insight into contemporary classical music, kris. As with most who had gone through the traditional music training, few would have been exposed to the later composers.

But coming down to the basic needs, everybody still needs an income to survive in the real world today. Most modern day composers I know of (with my limited knowledge) does it by writing commercially marketable music (TV/commercials/film). Otherwise, new compositions need to be recognised enough to sell in CDs. Otherwise, they need to be teachers or music directors, or something to earn a living in this world. Perhaps Kris, you could help out here to give us more insight into how things work for them.

When I was younger, my ambition was to be a trumpet player in the orchestra. Then it was composition. Today, I still compose and write, when time allows. I don't compose "competitively" or to please any audience out there. There are just too many complex musical motifs going on in my head that if I don't pen them down and get them orchestrated, I feel my head would burst with music from the inside out. Two nights ago, for example, I had to tell my wife at 11:30 pm that I need to get the music down on paper before I go to bed, or else I wouldn't be able to sleep. She knows these moments, and encourages me to do it. But...music composition is not my job.

Kris, more insights?
 
(RE Chinese music and the pentatonic scale - the reason the pentatonic scale is condusive to 'nice' music is because the tritone occurs betwen the 4th and 7th degres of a diatonic major scale - these are the two notes removed from the pentatonic scale. Therefore, any note combination in a pentatonic scale will sound harmonious.)

I know! But I rephrase it, 4th and 7th degree are not often played in chinese music. Many chinese instrument are capable of doing it that.
 
Good post, Cheez ;)

OK in reply to your points -

Thanks for your insight into contemporary classical music, kris. As with most who had gone through the traditional music training, few would have been exposed to the later composers.

It depends what you mean by 'traditional' music training. Exposure to as much of the repertoire as possible was part of my training. Familiarity with the Romantic repertoire was part of this training, but not the totality of it.



But coming down to the basic needs, everybody still needs an income to survive in the real world today. Most modern day composers I know of (with my limited knowledge) does it by writing commercially marketable music (TV/commercials/film). Otherwise, new compositions need to be recognised enough to sell in CDs. Otherwise, they need to be teachers or music directors, or something to earn a living in this world. Perhaps Kris, you could help out here to give us more insight into how things work for them.

It depends how you define 'composing'.

To take an example from my previous post - Ingram Marshall teaches music at university level as well as composing. However he doesn't make much money from composing. Not enough to live on, anyway.



When I was younger, my ambition was to be a trumpet player in the orchestra. Then it was composition. Today, I still compose and write, when time allows. I don't compose "competitively" or to please any audience out there. There are just too many complex musical motifs going on in my head that if I don't pen them down and get them orchestrated, I feel my head would burst with music from the inside out. Two nights ago, for example, I had to tell my wife at 11:30 pm that I need to get the music down on paper before I go to bed, or else I wouldn't be able to sleep. She knows these moments, and encourages me to do it. But...music composition is not my job.

Kris, more insights?

When has a 'job' ever defined someone? And if you compose, are you not a composer? Do you have to make money to call yourself a 'composer'? Do you make money from playing guitar? Most people don't. Does this mean they are not 'guitarists'? But I know what you mean - if someone asks what you do, they usually mean how you put bread on the table.

But yes, making a living from composing is very difficult. I make the majority of my income from composing/performing (private commissions and performances of said commissions usually), and the rest of my income is made up from teaching.

Some 'composers' do have everyday jobs also - even 'signed' artists. One of my friends is signed to Ricordi, but he pays the bills by working part-time as an engineer. However, it isn't all it is cracked up to be - he has to work part-time in order to give himself time to compose, but as a consequence of this, he lives in a run-down area of his town in a tiny studio apartment.

But composing is more important to him - as long as he has enough to survive, then he is happy. I've found this to be the case with the vast majority who work in the arts - the actual creative activity is a necessity and simply cannot be sidelined.

I've been there as well - for a long time, I was living in what could only be described as squalor (i.e. lighting by candle light as I couldn't afford the electricity bills) - but I didn't care, as I had clothes on my back (one spare pair of jeans lol) and could just about manage to put food on the table every night. I didn't bother me in the slightest, as I had the most important thing in a creative life at my disposal - time to create.

Ironically, there are other areas of classical music that do make a hell of a lot of money i.e. scoring for movies. But you need technical knowledge of the studio and be up to date with gear etc as well as compositional skill to really do well in this field. Plus the ability to compose at the drop of a hat (in some instances, improvise first-take as studio time is very limited). Then there is the obvious that the industry won't just throw the first person who claims to be able to 'compose for movies' onto a feature film - competence has to be proved - in many areas and across many styles/genres. This may mean spending a few years scoring for free for animator friends, doing background music for sculptural installations etc etc

Someone else I know now works as a composer for film, but he spent years simply 'filling in' when he was needed, and working as a runner etc etc. Pretty much doing anything to be in the environment that would potentially create the opportunity he needed.

As well as training, contacts are important - university can, in some instances, create contacts within the industry, and lead to potential opportunities.

Plus, like I was saying, combining artforms i.e working with sculptors/dancers etc etc. This also potentially means double the exposure.





I don't know the classical music industry side of things in Singapore. Are there any annual contemporary classical music festivals in Singapore - especialy ones that promote Singaporean talent? What about contemporary classical publishing companies?

Ironically, Singapore has great facilites for putting on great classical concerts/events (and I know they do put on classical concerts, but it's mostly the standard fare).
 
From what I know, most of local full time classical musician do not survive on their full time performance job. They have to teach,sell instrument, to make a better living. Only conductor get the best paid. 5 figure for sure. I know Tang quartet for sure beside perform, teach at varsity , recording seasonist.

Jazz musician hit the most at this down time. In general, there are lesser gigs. All the famouse one teach. This come from a french jazz composer who live here for very long time. He teach international svhool, and luckily he got a fairly good deal being an arranger of upcoming Jazz album from my friend.

Chinese pop musician will have a little chance to jump oversea. People like Richard Ho from an pop arranger to commercial ads to film scoring. There are some local producer flew to china to open up new market. Constantly, there are local chinese artist exported out. Composer have the chance to sell their music, but hardly as a main source of income.

English pop here...............
 
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Jazz french composer? Think I know him. Our local society culture needs to change the whole mentality of people in terms of music composition and local people being more open-mined.

I think local composers are not given enough opportunties to compose for $$$. And furthermore with the lack of time and low money, some of them dont feel that it's worth composing. I do know of a local company which give opportunties to local composers to compose original songs for music projects.

Of course at the end of the day, its up to the client to choose if he wants the song. And the director of the company do find it challenging in a way to give support to the musicians here. Whatever it is, it is good that the company wants to do something for the local musicians here.

For more details, u can visit my music blog. I think its important that we should start focus on giving finanical opportunties to musicians rather than just saying "I Support Local Music!". Well musicians also need $$$ to survive!
 
on a slightly unrelated note, i think and feel that its time we reach the maximum level for avant-garde composers churning out ever-so-complicated, ever so-untuneful modern day pieces. These are your "continuity" entities of Bach, Busoni, Brahms, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, etc etc...

And i don't like where it's going. Just personal opinion though.
 
if music is still evolving, how can it still be getting simpler.

Prodigies do not necessarily compose. But if all classical prodigies compose, are these prodigies really prodigies if they only play chopin's or liszt's repertoire?

How do you define maximum level of music? Atonal? Is Mozart really the maximum level? Can he play or write something jazz, blues, rock, atonal, electronic, chinese, african, jamaican or loop music? Or something like writing a tapdancing piece.

The only thing that will limit music, is when we reach the limit of our human capabilities. Such as writing a guitar piece that requires 3 hands to play.
 
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I have read Aaron Copeland's What to Listen for in Music where he says you shouldn't judge music on the basis on how nice it sounds.

But I am stubborn and remain unmoved. I still to hold the vulgar view. If the melody does not sound nice, I like most of the vulgar mass, wouldn't want to listen to it again, or sit to the end of the song. And to want to listen to it again, it better have good "hooks"... being pleasant is not enough, whether it comes about through simplicity or complexity.
 
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But I am stubborn and remain unmoved. I still to hold the vulgar view. If the melody does not sound nice, I like most of the vulgar mass, wouldn't want to listen to it again

Could you define what a 'nice' sounding melody is?

What difference does it make if a composer writes a piece and no one likes it? Maybe all this shows is that the work is so original the masses don't know how to react to it, since aesthetic judgement of music is primarily a social convention anyway?
 
i think and feel that its time we reach the maximum level for avant-garde composers churning out ever-so-complicated, ever so-untuneful modern day pieces.

Avant-garde doesn't mean 'tuneless and complicated' (which are both relative terms anyway).

The nature of avant-garde is breaking the convention of expectancy within a set artform.

If the majority of music was 'complex and tuneless', then avant-garde music could well be a simpler, more direct musical form (as it would be a form running counter to the expected norm within the specific genre).

But don't take the 'avant-garde' label too seriously. You don't want to become a Dadaist and end up shooting yourself ;)
 
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