JMguitars
New member
Saw an interesting piece off TGP, which originally came from the Barber forum and was written by Dave Barber about how to make OD pedals work with a rig and why some people have trouble doing that.
Pedals and amps and speakers OH MY! - forum.TPNgear.com
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Pedals and amps and speakers OH MY!, Tone guido
David Barber Aug 11 2004, 03:09 PM
Here is a topic that needs to be thought out VERY carefully by all players using pedals, amps and speakers (that includes most of you!). We have been devouring these three areas of tone for some time, as of very recently some very important info has come to light. I am going to start with speakers first (how strange considering it is a component we do not build)
The speaker brands we have been conducting tone design, testing and performance through range from these brands; Eminence, Weber, and Celestion . We have seen great results from each builder depending what tone is desired. Knowing what you are going to want from your guitar rig is “ALL IMPORTANT”, you will most likely not be able to get “everything” from the current crop of what is available. I am going to start with one of my favorite speaker builders first…Weber makes some absolutely incredible speakers that work for clean tones-very mild breakup, beyond that your mileage may vary, we recommend having a “fizz filter” installed in most OD pedals that you would like to mate with extended HF response speakers, I also recommend removing or turning off any “bright caps” when working with extended HF speakers. Ted Weber has described that Weber speakers have “more energy in the gap” and some sources “could reveal an extended high end up about 10Khz”, with moderate to heavy overdrive/distortion this can have a “paper tearing” effect, or sound “metallic or fizzy”. There is more though on these excellent Weber speakers, we have found as the volume of the amp increases the speaker can starts to compress and the 10k peak starts to level out, this is part of what explains why many guitar players feel that pedals need more volume to make pedals sound natural. The amps volume control in some instances has a small “bright cap” permanently installed, but as you turn up the volume of your amp, the cap effect is diminished and fizz goes down yet again. I am talking with Ted Weber about finding a speaker build/model or two; that carries his stellar “class leading clean tone” while allowing the treble responce of od/dist pedals to not become exaggerated….this would be the best “everybody wins” scenario…we aint there yet! The Weber models we have liked best are 10f150t, c10v,10a125..we are working through some others as well. Ted Weber has informed me that his speakers use a similar gap to vintage speakers, this in comparison to the larger gap in "modern speakers" accounts for the extra energy that results in the 10k fizz when using distortion pedals, Ted has suggested ordering his speakers with an "H" dust cap or having Weber use a larger gap to reduce this energy...Ted referred to this as making speakers dumber
Eminence speakers are also excellent with their new Patriot and Redcoat series. These speakers do not deliver quite the sweet lively clean tones of Weber, but they certainly sound very good for clean, we like the Texas Heat, Red Fang, Ramrod, Copperhead and Rajin Cajun. The nice part about the Eminence speakers is they are well made, priced well and work well from clean to heavy overdrive without exaggerating the high frequencies from od pedals. This makes them a pretty solid choice at the moment for the all around player who needs a lot of versatility, but is willing to give up a little of the Weber clean tone magic for a wider range of application. I can get into specifics about several of the Emi speakers of asked, but these comments are general. Eminence has gone from being what I considered “general replacement” to very nice “working mans” guitar speakers…they sound very good and get the job done at a reasonable price.
Celestion speakers are a old standard, mostly known for their 12” model speakers. Celestion has pretty much defined what players know as “British tone” with a forward presence that cuts through rock/pop music. The Celestions have never been my favorites for clean tones, yet once again they seem to accept pedals without too much complaint, but they just seem to lack balance and sweetness when clean, although the Blue is pretty darn nice for clean and od. We have found the recent Celestion hard to recommend due to high prices and lighter bottom end when used in pure open back cabs (although some models defy this). Once again a nice British/Chinese working mans speaker, but at a higher price, so we recommend the Redcoat series from Eminence until Celestion can get their pricing and country of origin in line. If they are going to be made in China, get the price down! Bottom line for my discussion, these speakers do work pretty well in the guitar-pedal od-amp-speaker equation, but there are better values.
We have also worked with speakers from Jenson, JBL, EV and a host of “vintage speakers in varying states of decay”. The JBL with metal dust caps always seem to excite unwanted overdrive/distortion frequencies, EV seems less offensive with OD although both of these speakers share legions of playing fans. Just be ready to take what comes with all that headroom and extended top!
The final word on speakers is; if you have a speaker that is extra defined and detailed in the treble range (even if it has good bottom), you may very well get bitten when trying to find an overdrive that works (as in none may sound usable!). Metallic fizz when using overdrive/dist can haunt the holder of the extended presence clean tone. Choose carefully.
On to amps!
I will keep this much shorter due to the copious amp builders, there is no time to touch on every one, so I will be fair and stick to some general rules for getting the standard guitar-dist-amp-speaker working guys rug to work well. There are a few things to look for when diagnosing abhorrent tones in your amp rig concerning pedal od. Bright caps almost always “death to tone” unless you are looking to peel off paint and eject tooth fillings! If you have a particularly dark and or speaker then these little gremlins can work, but most days leave them off. There are also tone controls that work by adding bright caps in across your volume control as you turn the tone up, turning down your volume control makes them have a much greater effect (tweed deluxe!)…again this gives players the illusion that a pedal od can sound harsh until the amp is turned up (defeating the treble cap and fizz!). The last of this short diatribe on amps is the negative feedback loop, amps that lack a negative feedback loop can be a hard match for pedal overdrive as well, frequencies can seem “untamed” with volume changes from the amp…again this is manageable but will take some effort on the part of the player, it is best to have a knowledgeable sales guy to talk to when buying an overdrive/distortion for your amp…you will save loads in endless searching by talking to the “informed sales person’…this guy may not have the lowest price, BUT pay him for his time by not haggling over $5 and think of all you saved by not getting the wrong gear!!!
And now those pedals that create sustain and harmonics, I have discussed how other components can affect the sound of overdrive, and that not pointing to your pedal (by any brand) every time you hear harsh tones can lead to better sound. I am going to limit my pedal talk to Barber pedals as to avoid any conflicts of interest and finger pointing. Barber overdrive pedals can be filtered to work better with speakers that have extended treble response. The mod is pretty simple, add a 220p-.001 cap across the two outside legs of the volume pot on your Barber pedal, 470p is a nice in between value that works pretty well, if this is a bit heavy handed add a resistor in series with the cap with a value between 1k-25k ¼ watt. This will require a little experimenting depending on the speaker you are trying to work with and you level if “fizz filtering” you are looking to achieve. Those deadly great detailed clean speakers can work with heavy overdrive, but be prepared to “shape the overdrive signal” to mate better…If I could only add a few more controls on these 3.7”x 4.7” pedals we could make this easier…custom shop anyone?
I hope by working with Ted Weber we can create a speaker spec that can be as close to do all as possible…clean to mean a guaranteed “pedal friendly” speaker.
Of course players, pickups, strings, guitars and picks all contribute to tone as well, but I wanted to keep this focused on a few major areas.
Thanks for reading.
This post has been edited by David Barber: Aug 11 2004, 05:23 PM
--------------------
David Barber
Barber Electronics
Building Tone by Hand
Pedals and amps and speakers OH MY! - forum.TPNgear.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Pedals and amps and speakers OH MY!, Tone guido
David Barber Aug 11 2004, 03:09 PM
Here is a topic that needs to be thought out VERY carefully by all players using pedals, amps and speakers (that includes most of you!). We have been devouring these three areas of tone for some time, as of very recently some very important info has come to light. I am going to start with speakers first (how strange considering it is a component we do not build)
The speaker brands we have been conducting tone design, testing and performance through range from these brands; Eminence, Weber, and Celestion . We have seen great results from each builder depending what tone is desired. Knowing what you are going to want from your guitar rig is “ALL IMPORTANT”, you will most likely not be able to get “everything” from the current crop of what is available. I am going to start with one of my favorite speaker builders first…Weber makes some absolutely incredible speakers that work for clean tones-very mild breakup, beyond that your mileage may vary, we recommend having a “fizz filter” installed in most OD pedals that you would like to mate with extended HF response speakers, I also recommend removing or turning off any “bright caps” when working with extended HF speakers. Ted Weber has described that Weber speakers have “more energy in the gap” and some sources “could reveal an extended high end up about 10Khz”, with moderate to heavy overdrive/distortion this can have a “paper tearing” effect, or sound “metallic or fizzy”. There is more though on these excellent Weber speakers, we have found as the volume of the amp increases the speaker can starts to compress and the 10k peak starts to level out, this is part of what explains why many guitar players feel that pedals need more volume to make pedals sound natural. The amps volume control in some instances has a small “bright cap” permanently installed, but as you turn up the volume of your amp, the cap effect is diminished and fizz goes down yet again. I am talking with Ted Weber about finding a speaker build/model or two; that carries his stellar “class leading clean tone” while allowing the treble responce of od/dist pedals to not become exaggerated….this would be the best “everybody wins” scenario…we aint there yet! The Weber models we have liked best are 10f150t, c10v,10a125..we are working through some others as well. Ted Weber has informed me that his speakers use a similar gap to vintage speakers, this in comparison to the larger gap in "modern speakers" accounts for the extra energy that results in the 10k fizz when using distortion pedals, Ted has suggested ordering his speakers with an "H" dust cap or having Weber use a larger gap to reduce this energy...Ted referred to this as making speakers dumber
Eminence speakers are also excellent with their new Patriot and Redcoat series. These speakers do not deliver quite the sweet lively clean tones of Weber, but they certainly sound very good for clean, we like the Texas Heat, Red Fang, Ramrod, Copperhead and Rajin Cajun. The nice part about the Eminence speakers is they are well made, priced well and work well from clean to heavy overdrive without exaggerating the high frequencies from od pedals. This makes them a pretty solid choice at the moment for the all around player who needs a lot of versatility, but is willing to give up a little of the Weber clean tone magic for a wider range of application. I can get into specifics about several of the Emi speakers of asked, but these comments are general. Eminence has gone from being what I considered “general replacement” to very nice “working mans” guitar speakers…they sound very good and get the job done at a reasonable price.
Celestion speakers are a old standard, mostly known for their 12” model speakers. Celestion has pretty much defined what players know as “British tone” with a forward presence that cuts through rock/pop music. The Celestions have never been my favorites for clean tones, yet once again they seem to accept pedals without too much complaint, but they just seem to lack balance and sweetness when clean, although the Blue is pretty darn nice for clean and od. We have found the recent Celestion hard to recommend due to high prices and lighter bottom end when used in pure open back cabs (although some models defy this). Once again a nice British/Chinese working mans speaker, but at a higher price, so we recommend the Redcoat series from Eminence until Celestion can get their pricing and country of origin in line. If they are going to be made in China, get the price down! Bottom line for my discussion, these speakers do work pretty well in the guitar-pedal od-amp-speaker equation, but there are better values.
We have also worked with speakers from Jenson, JBL, EV and a host of “vintage speakers in varying states of decay”. The JBL with metal dust caps always seem to excite unwanted overdrive/distortion frequencies, EV seems less offensive with OD although both of these speakers share legions of playing fans. Just be ready to take what comes with all that headroom and extended top!
The final word on speakers is; if you have a speaker that is extra defined and detailed in the treble range (even if it has good bottom), you may very well get bitten when trying to find an overdrive that works (as in none may sound usable!). Metallic fizz when using overdrive/dist can haunt the holder of the extended presence clean tone. Choose carefully.
On to amps!
I will keep this much shorter due to the copious amp builders, there is no time to touch on every one, so I will be fair and stick to some general rules for getting the standard guitar-dist-amp-speaker working guys rug to work well. There are a few things to look for when diagnosing abhorrent tones in your amp rig concerning pedal od. Bright caps almost always “death to tone” unless you are looking to peel off paint and eject tooth fillings! If you have a particularly dark and or speaker then these little gremlins can work, but most days leave them off. There are also tone controls that work by adding bright caps in across your volume control as you turn the tone up, turning down your volume control makes them have a much greater effect (tweed deluxe!)…again this gives players the illusion that a pedal od can sound harsh until the amp is turned up (defeating the treble cap and fizz!). The last of this short diatribe on amps is the negative feedback loop, amps that lack a negative feedback loop can be a hard match for pedal overdrive as well, frequencies can seem “untamed” with volume changes from the amp…again this is manageable but will take some effort on the part of the player, it is best to have a knowledgeable sales guy to talk to when buying an overdrive/distortion for your amp…you will save loads in endless searching by talking to the “informed sales person’…this guy may not have the lowest price, BUT pay him for his time by not haggling over $5 and think of all you saved by not getting the wrong gear!!!
And now those pedals that create sustain and harmonics, I have discussed how other components can affect the sound of overdrive, and that not pointing to your pedal (by any brand) every time you hear harsh tones can lead to better sound. I am going to limit my pedal talk to Barber pedals as to avoid any conflicts of interest and finger pointing. Barber overdrive pedals can be filtered to work better with speakers that have extended treble response. The mod is pretty simple, add a 220p-.001 cap across the two outside legs of the volume pot on your Barber pedal, 470p is a nice in between value that works pretty well, if this is a bit heavy handed add a resistor in series with the cap with a value between 1k-25k ¼ watt. This will require a little experimenting depending on the speaker you are trying to work with and you level if “fizz filtering” you are looking to achieve. Those deadly great detailed clean speakers can work with heavy overdrive, but be prepared to “shape the overdrive signal” to mate better…If I could only add a few more controls on these 3.7”x 4.7” pedals we could make this easier…custom shop anyone?
I hope by working with Ted Weber we can create a speaker spec that can be as close to do all as possible…clean to mean a guaranteed “pedal friendly” speaker.
Of course players, pickups, strings, guitars and picks all contribute to tone as well, but I wanted to keep this focused on a few major areas.
Thanks for reading.
This post has been edited by David Barber: Aug 11 2004, 05:23 PM
--------------------
David Barber
Barber Electronics
Building Tone by Hand
