Stick Grip and Ghost notes

[BigBeN]

Hello! I'm posting 2 questions:

1) Stick Grip (Fulcrum)

I watched one of dave weckl's videos, in which he recommended using the middle finger as part of the fulcrum, instead of the conventional index-thumb-fulcrum. He mentioned that by using the former, it allows the sticks to bounce more and the drums to 'sing better' and have 'better tone', as compared to when using the latter fulcrum.

I then went to check out some other great drummers like Steve Gadd and Ndugu Chancler, they also seem to be using their middle finger as part of the fulcrum - their index finger doesn't wrap much around the stick, but sorta 'hang loosely'.

I understand there's no THEE technique or grip; so long whatever is comfortable and suits, it shall be it. But would like to hear from you guys on this.

(another sub-question: How do gospel drummers (teddy campbell, calvin rodgers etc) sound so tight? Is it something to do with their grip and the way they strike?Whenever I listen to their playing, they just somehow sound rather different, as compared to those non-gospel drummers. Not to mention gospel drummers have some of the deepest pockets and grooves around, I feel)

2) Ghost notes in groove
Ok I don't quite know how to explain this, but how to have that multiple ghost notes in a normal 4/4 groove - something along the line of david garibardi? Issit double strokes (tap) in between the Right hand? like Rll Rll L(snare)?

 

[lummer]

Hi BigBen...
Interesting questions...

Grip as you mentioned, there is no right or wrong grip... But i chance upon a video of Dave Weckl he mentioned traditional grip is what he started with because all the great drummers he saw and listen to when he was young all played traditional grip. He also mentioned the advantage of traditional grip as oppose to match grip but remains natural that there is no right or wrong... haha! He was really encouraging traditional grip in opinion... hahaha...

As for the index or middle finger, I personally feel using the middle finger oppose to the index finger is more comfortable and more in control.

I think basically all great drummers sounds different from one another. THe "feel" and approach to drumming is so crucial... I personally think its beyond what grip they use. Its really down to their "feel" and musically influence. THe blacks are great groovers man!!! Very very tight and intricate stuff they play... And they are really superb in that genre of music. But few are able to accomplish a wide genre of musical drumming. To name 2 of my favorite drummer legend that has the ability will be Vinnie Colaiuta and Steve Smith...

As for ghost notings... david garibardi do have very sweet ghost notings when he plays all the funk grooves in Tower of Power!!! Awesome! I am sure you know this, try this exercise... Paradiddle RLRR LRLL RLRR LRLL with a simple kick pattern on 1 and 3. Play the paradiddle as semi quavers between the hihats and snare, accenting the snare on the 2nd and 4th (Which is on the LRLL) but keep the rest light. The rest of the left hand snare notes becomes the softer notes which then becomes the ghost notes. Basically ghost notes are colors to a groove. It makes it sound tight. Over and beyond, its a form of keeping time and the groove. Ghost notes are also refer to as sub-divisions... So you do not just have a boring count of 1234 but also have the sub-divisions to groove to... ITs just like playing to a click... practicing to Quarter note count, 8 note count and 16 note count all feels different.

 

[alvinthedrummer]

1) Stick Grip (Fulcrum)

My fulcrum switch for different purposes such as for dynamic changes, tone choices etc...so do practice both ways.

As for the Gospel drummers, if you study most of their phrases (depending on the tempo of the song) its mostly in triplets if not 32nds. Very linear (with loads of hand-foot combos) and very hard hitting. Most importantly, a lot of single strokes which explains the power too....

2) Ghost notes in groove

Ghost notes simply mean one thing. Softer notes, which is why they are also sometimes called grace notes. Ghost notes do not equate to subdivisions. Subdivisions are smaller divisions of the main pulses in the bar. So, for example in a bar of 2/2, 4 quarter notes will be the first layer subdivision of the 2 half-notes. In a bar of 4/4, the 8th notes will be the first layer and semi-quavers the 2nd layer etc.

It is important to understand that any note can be ghosted, so its a matter of what you are trying to achieve in your phrasing of the music. For Garibaldi, do check out his book Future Sounds and you will be super clear immediately. Alot of it is on linear phrasing.

The paradiddle layered groove study is great and I do a lot of it. Even practiced all the inversions etc....but even then, I hardly use them in a pop/rock setting, mostly in a fusion/jazz setting.

For a more useable study in pop/rock styles, do check out http://musicalchops.blogspot.com/ for some basic exercises....

All the best!!

 

[caijunlong]

Yeah, they like to fill in with triplets. Alvin's blog is good. Check out the practices. I think that's the multiple ghost notes that you're talking about. If not probably the ghost notes are phrase in triplets. The tri and the plet.

 

[BigBeN]

I find traditional grip very tough, though it's very good for executing the ghost notes, if i'm not wrong.

Talking about 'feel' - something that's intangible, I don't know if this' a stupid question, but how does one develop better 'feel'? Feel is related to one's style and influence? Is it just listening to all kinds of music, trying to grasp the 'feel' and beat?

I do use the paradiddle groove sometimes. But more often than not, the songs require me to keep straight 8th HH beats...Thanks alvin for the materials - they are really handy! Btw, I've been trying out the metronome practice that you posted earlier on. It's kinda driving me crazy. Haha.

Wanna ask sth about it: Apart from having the 16th beat clicks on my DB-60, I turned on the triplet click as well. So, I try to 'catch' the corresponding distinct clicks for each subdivision. Is that considered cheating or OK?

 

[SocialReject]

i started matched grip... but now im using tradional grip... took me awhile to get used to it..

trad grip does make ghosting easier... in matched grip mode u gotta control the physical height of the stick... closer to the head > less energy > softer notes..

in trad grip... changing the angle of ur wrist> changes angle of impact > changes dynamics...

however trad grip does have its flaws... it uses more muscles... and the weird angle is no longer an extension of your arms and this makes it abit hard to do your chops... u might be able to pull off a "tat boom tity boom" but u might miss the "bucket of fish"...

and flipping the butt end to do rim clicks and flipping back requires abit more action.

 

[alvinthedrummer]

Hey BigBen,

Trad grip is tough but all it needs is some persistence and regular practice. You'll get it in time.

As for feel, you answered a huge part of it yourself. Listening as much as possible. I always believe in 2 kinds of groove practice. One is to practice to the metronome to develop as much accuracy as possible and two, to practice your favourite songs to a CD. In the latter, if you strive to match the drummer in the CD as much as possible, you are mimicking his time, feel etc....what other better ways to learn feel than to learn it from a top recorded drummer?

"wanna ask sth about it: Apart from having the 16th beat clicks on my DB-60, I turned on the triplet click as well. So, I try to 'catch' the corresponding distinct clicks for each subdivision. Is that considered cheating or OK?"

Do you mean you have triplet subdivisions clicking while the 16ths are going on? Unless you are trying to figure out how 3 over 4 sounds that is....but for a start (for basic groove strengthening) you should just focus on learning the 16th subdivision on its own as well as possible and the triplets on their own as well as possible (in the context of swing, shuffle etc).

And no, learning with subdivisions are not cheating...we live in a modern world and by now everyone should have adopted the mentality of making the most use of whatever there is out there to "help" you learn better. The old-school minimalist method should be used as a "test" of how accurate you are after you have spent time practicing with subdivisions. If anything at all, if you are not making use of the subdivisions to help you learn, you are only cheating yourself!

All the best!

 

[Softwaremaker]

trad grip does make ghosting easier... in matched grip mode u gotta control the physical height of the stick... closer to the head > less energy > softer notes..

in trad grip... changing the angle of ur wrist> changes angle of impact > changes dynamics...

The 3 Kings of Ghost Notes - David Garibaldi, Jeff Porcaro (RIP), Clyde Stubblefield all use matched grips as their primary grip.

Traditional grip doesnt make it better/easier. It is all practice, practice, practice.

 

[lummer]

The 3 Kings of Ghost Notes - David Garibaldi, Jeff Porcaro (RIP), Clyde Stubblefield all use matched grips as their primary grip.

Traditional grip doesnt make it better/easier. It is all practice, practice, practice.

Yeah! Finally some words of comfort... Not necessarily traditional grip is the way to go although it looks cool to many... Having said, it does feel better in mainstream jazz numbers... Stewart Copeland, traditional grip player rocking with Police... I admire his strength and courage having to play such music with traditional grip until fingers bleed and needs to tape it up!!! haha... But he is one super cool traditional grip drummers that rock steady!!