how to apply the dimished scale in rock or metal music?

[fenderrules]

hello..

i have recently looked up on this scale and have roughly familiarised the fingering patterns of it.

---------------------4-5-7----
-------------------4-6-7------
---------------4-5-7----------
-----------4-6-7--------------
-----5-6-8--------------------
-5-7-8------------------------

okay, the thing is that lets say if i wanna play a small riff or part of a solo using this scale, and i wanna use a chord progression like Am - Gmaj - Fmin - Emaj or the same chords in power chords how i would i do so? it's not like the minor pentatonic, and it feels somewhat like a finger excercise (its actually a great one by the way). but i know there is something special about it, and i wanna know more.

and are there any riffs from any songs which has the diminished scale applied in them? if so, i would like to know and try to play them to get an idea on what its like.

thanks for taking the time to read this and enlighten me.


cheers =)

 

[karlie]

hey man, check malmsteen out, he's the man for rock diminished licks! some sort at least.
well you have to selectively use the scale, its definitely possible to use it over the whole chord progression but it would sound nicer over the G5 (power chord right you said?) and E5

 

[fenderrules]

hey man, check malmsteen out, he's the man for rock diminished licks!...

well yeah he definetly is. but what about those non-instrumental songs? do bands in the metalcore or thrash metal genre like machine head or trivium use it?

well you have to selectively use the scale, its definitely possible to use it over the whole chord progression but it would sound nicer over the G5 (power chord right you said?) and E5..

oh so it will still sound okay when do a full run of the scale over the above mentioned power chords? but if selectively right, what would be the typical or preferred way of playing it?

thanks =D

 

[DarknessIsComfort]

^ check out Death.

 

[fuzztremecho]

hey bro fender

just to share
this is the formula to remember with when it comes with a diminished scale

Scale - Diminished
1,2,b3,4,b5,b6,6,7


it's better to remember the notes in the particular scale then remembering the finger patterns..it helps in the long run..

let's say a C diminished scale...will be something like this

C-D-D#-F-F#-G#-A-B.

you let your fingers run by restricting yourself to the 1st three strings (E,B and G)..then you could see that there is alot of things that you could learn and enjoy...

learn this from some Keith Wyatt stuffs..have fun

 

[fenderrules]

^ check out Death.

DEATH as in the band?

 

[karlie]

hey man!
yeah, erm technically you can do this in pop songs, or rather any songs that you feel the scale you fit over.

honestly the best way to learn if it sounds nice over that chord progression would be to record yourself playing over it. take what u think sounds nice then use it

yeah and +1 to fuzz bro, understanding why will help you alot in future

 

[pianomankris]

The diminished scale is generally used over the V7 chord (e.g. G7 in the key of C)

However, it is more often played as a V7alt chord.
The 'alt' notes are usually notes from the diminished scale - hence the scale works.



Malmsteen uses it as part of a ii - V - i progression within the harmonic minor framework (which is just pure classical harmony).

In the harmonic minor scale, the ii chord is diminished.

 

[DarknessIsComfort]

DEATH as in the band?

Yup. Actually theres a lot of metal bands using diminished scales...eg. Necrophagist, The Faceless, Cryptopsy(i think)...etc.

 

[NoMiS]

hey bro fender

just to share
this is the formula to remember with when it comes with a diminished scale

Scale - Diminished
1,2,b3,4,b5,b6,6,7


it's better to remember the notes in the particular scale then remembering the finger patterns..it helps in the long run..

let's say a C diminished scale...will be something like this

C-D-D#-F-F#-G#-A-B.

you let your fingers run by restricting yourself to the 1st three strings (E,B and G)..then you could see that there is alot of things that you could learn and enjoy...

learn this from some Keith Wyatt stuffs..have fun

sorry bro, just to make sure. i tot a full diminished scale is a 1,2,b3,4,b5,b6,bb7(6). comparing it to a half diminished, 1,2,b3,4,b5,b6,b7.

 

[fenderrules]

okay guys.....listen to this song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-myEdqPXlA

its called like light to the flies by trivium from their 1st album ascendancy. fast forward to 1:36. the riff had some kind of neo-classic feel to it.

is it the diminished or half dimished scale in action??


thanks =)

 

[djasli]

sorry bro, just to make sure. i tot a full diminished scale is a 1,2,b3,4,b5,b6,bb7(6). comparing it to a half diminished, 1,2,b3,4,b5,b6,b7.

hi bros,

actually there are 2 diminished scales - the Wh and the hW scales. either way, both are a 8 notes scales. major and minor scales have 7 notes, all discounting the octave.

let's see if i can do a comparison.

bro NoMis, you wrote 1,2,b3,4,b5,b6,bb7(6)
bro fuzz, you wrote 1,2,b3,4,b5,b6,6,7.

both of you actually spelt out the dim whole-tone half-tone scale but without the major 7 in bro NoMis scale.

Here it is: C (W) D (h) Eb (W) F (h) Gb (W) Ab (h) A (W) B (h) C

Both of you are correct actually, just different approach.... jazz players utilised diminsihed scales in weird ways...lol, esp on ii V I major or mnor progressions (more altered 7th chords, the better) while rock players tend to arpegiate the dim chords instead. for example, try combining the F# dim chords tones, F# A C Eb into a E harmonic minor, say on Malmsteen's I am a Viking solo or any other song in E minor really. It works very well. or, you can imply, shred those dim scales randomly, alternating with the harmonic minor scale.

to get a fusion sound,say you're playing miles davis So What (love that song) start a dim scale starting from the key note of the song, i play in Dm, hence play a Db dim scale. instant modal sound and way so Pat Martino or Chick Corea.. hehe.

oh yeah, just reverse the order for the for the half-tone whole-tone dim scale. works esp fine with altered 7th chords cos of the b9. works fine on Steve Vai's For the love of God first 4 bars f | Em9 | Em9 | Fmaj7 (#11) | F maj7 (#11) too if you wanna to improvise instead of playing note for note.

they will all work on dim chords, naturally.

loads of things we can do with the above, in any styles,yes even funk.... full of altered chords, hehe. i love altered chords.... lol.

 

[fuzztremecho]

yes Sifu...
still under your learned ways...

 

[Henzy]

There we go the humble & wise one speaks

 

[fenderrules]

for example, try combining the F# dim chords tones, F# A C Eb into a E harmonic minor, say on Malmsteen's I am a Viking solo or any other song in E minor really. It works very well. or, you can imply, shred those dim scales randomly, alternating with the harmonic minor scale.

sorrie my theory is kinda weak but i see if can get the geist of it..

so lets say i made out a riff in E minor. and the progression goes like Em, Dmaj, Gmaj, F#min and Ebmin.

then can i use the F# dim scale to solo over it while using some notes from the E harmonic minor scale?

sorrie if im still asking, im very very curious. cuz it always fascinated me how players do those small neo classical riffs or speed runs and it fits into the chords they play.


thanks =)

 

[fuzztremecho]

fender bro

your chord progressions...Em, Dmaj, Gmaj, F#min and Ebmin...
one of the best and simplest way to do is spell out the notes that make out each chords..add up with b3 and b6..which is your harmonic minor scale..can try to hear/feel how it sounds like..

diminished scale are...in the words of Doug Aldrich..like your spices...there are in minor
3rds so any note can be your root note..

put in a lil bit more of this spices..might turn SPICY or TOO SPICY..

when I play..I go for the safest route..major/minor/pentatonics...hehehe

have fun