Learning the Ropes to MUSIC

[jon_wong]

Hi,

Am not new to music, but new to formal theory & notation. But i recently realized i could play ANY song on piano. I know many pple do that, I've heard them too. But I'm not talking abt approximations. I seem to hear more colors, shades. Check out what's left of my showcase at

http://www.finalemusic.com/showcase/fs_author_info.asp?author_id=1QO995P9O75QNRS40949QO74091158R2

I'm hoping to learn music from u guys. I've looked thru' some piano teachers, but IMHO, they don't seem to "cut it". Many get jittery after hearing me play what they just played. I still can't read notes very well, though i recently started learning from morsels of free online music theory.

Am currently receiving hundreds of emails worldwide, requesting for me to write down popular songs, soundtracks, etc. I'm rather lost. Help?

I might be on the verge of finding the right teacher soon. But would still like to hear from more experts in music.

Hope to hear from u soon.

 

[Cheez]

You obviously have a gifted ear. You stated that you would like to "learn music". From what you wrote, I gather that you would like to learn to play the piano - right? You obviously can play the piano seeing that you can play what you hear. So which area of piano playing would you like to learn? Classical, jazz, pop?

"Writing down popular songs and soundtracks" doesn't help you to learn to play the piano. Does help you to learn about music structure - again becareful of which music you're transcibing (some have bad musical sense). I used to learn orchestration and music writing by transcribing classical and symphonic soundtracks/ music by ear - instrument by instrument and section by section. Helps me to analyse the piece of music and develop my hearing at the same time. But if you've just started learning notation, this can be a feat. Know your basics first. The investment of time in what seems useless at that time (like theory) can really pay off in the long-term.

 

[jon_wong]

So which area of piano playing would you like to learn? Classical, jazz, pop?

Everything. Jazz is rather free-form, and mistakes in my playing (runs?) could be construed as jazz. haha. I would like to start on the traditional 1st. Read(ed) something abt strong & weak progressions. Still trying to find FREE music theory regarding chords on internet. If u've looked at my scores on my "showcase", u might think "oh, chords!". Many have said "Don't know wat else to teach u, u have nice chords". Problem is, I still don't know chords. The "bunch of notes" are purely... colors and shades to me.

As for classical, my 1st 2 pieces (attempted sight-reading) are Chopin's Op 9 No 2, and Fantasie Impromptu. So far so good, but lots of missing links, i believe. Like reading greek to me. I think it's mostly Italian, cos I do recognize some words in score.

"Writing down popular songs and soundtracks" doesn't help you to learn to play the piano. Does help you to learn about music structure - again becareful of which music you're transcibing (some have bad musical sense).

I got feeling too that it won't train me in piano. Which is why I need help with piano. Perhaps train my ears further, yes. Music structure is EXACTLY wat I want to learn, u're spot on. Sorry, I know few terms for music for now.

I used to learn orchestration and music writing by transcribing classical and symphonic soundtracks/ music by ear - instrument by instrument and section by section. Helps me to analyse the piece of music and develop my hearing at the same time.

Orchestration & music writing? That's probably wat I want to do as well. Help? U r a god-send! I love this forum. It's the best thing I've encountered in Singapore so far.

Western Classical & symphonic pieces r, with all due respect, IMHO easier to transcribe. Perhaps I haven't met the wider repertoire. Perhaps I've only been encouraged to transcribe the "happy-sounding" ones (easier).

In contrast, many J-Pop songs have less conventional colors & shades.

But if you've just started learning notation, this can be a feat. Know your basics first. The investment of time in what seems useless at that time (like theory) can really pay off in the long-term.

Perhaps not too mean a feat. Finale NotePad (the free version) helps me write. If u r familiar with computer programming, u'd understand how an IDE helps a programmer by providing syntax rules and highlighting. Same case here.

But I do admit, there r finer elements that I still can't express. Music doesn't always have strict timing. Fantasie Impromptu is 1 example. I think the free Finale NotePad has limitations. B4 I get the US$600 version, I'd like to know I can do SOMETHING useful with music. heh. So again, help?

I don't think theory is useless. As "practical" as I am now, I have habit of boiling things down to formulas. Problem is, I feel quite lost now. Every song I transcribed, I've found several other colors & shades for same melody. Would like to know why.

Discuss music. Throw homework to me. Anything & everything.

 

[Cheez]

You are obviously extremely talented and gifted! Sorry I can't see the file at the Finale site - to much trouble to install the viewer (had to join as a member etc, plus I hate installing unecessary softwares in my computer). I would really love to see what you wrote. For a person who's new to music notation and sight-reading Fantasie Impromtu - I take my hat off to you! You are a musical genius in making!

Definitely take up music theory and work hard at it. There are books out there that analyses scores. These will help you. I know what you mean by "colours and shades". It's hard to explain, more of something to be felt and "seen" rather than heard. I think all you need is a little help in conventional music theory/ practical and you're set to go. I'll be waiting to see your name in the Grammies!

Can't give you any more advise - I probably need advise from you. Oh, if you're into classical, listening to the Romantic's may help - lots of different tonal colours. My favourites: Tchaikovsky and Mahler. Respighi is another personal favourite.

 

[jon_wong]

You are obviously extremely talented and gifted!

There's a price for "talents & gifts". I seem to hear & see things differently. Been a source of some medical inconveniences. I notice u r doctor by occupation. U can really help me.

Sorry I can't see the file at the Finale site - to much trouble to install the viewer (had to join as a member etc, plus I hate installing unecessary softwares in my computer). I would really love to see what you wrote.

Go to www.finalemusic.com. Download the "Finale NotePad" (free version), not the viewer. That way, u can write music as well! The software allows u to put notes on the staff, & indicates the sound. That way, the only thing left to figure out is the rhythm. Rhythm is easy to me. Fantasie Impromptu has offbeat rhythm --- right & left hand different. I love that piece. Too bad, Finale NotePad can't allow something like that.

As for the Finale NotePad, please do download & install it. Or I can send to u via ICQ file transfer (if u trust me more than the official website). There's no virus or compatibility issue. It's just 4MB. Can we talk thru' email? That way, I can send u my "songs"! I've written many original pieces as well, little snippets. Experiments with "relativity". I was in choirs before, and "relative note reading" is wat we employ.

Maybe if we compile enuf good quality scores, we can make a book or something.

For a person who's new to music notation and sight-reading Fantasie Impromtu - I take my hat off to you! You are a musical genius in making!

I think u misunderstand. I TRIED to sight-read. End up having to painstakingly calculate from middle C (which is the same note on staff for both hands). But since 2 weeks back, I seem to be able to read faster. Can recognize notes instantly without calculating. And since last week, I could recognize "bunches of notes" (chords?) without calculating. There's been some other peculiar progress since.

On the side, I'm also experiencing several physiological changes, it seems. Senses r tuning in to stimuli I couldn't receive b4. To tell u the truth, I wasn't exactly *this* musical b4. Somehow, something changed a few years back, and I find myself able to use both hands for many everyday activities (chopsticks, toothbrush, cooking, and of course piano).

I would guess that there's a renewed connection between right & left brains. But u're the doctor. Maybe u can tell me.

Oh, my "new skills" r not limited to music. Also language, accents, sound mimicry. I learn to speak new accents (even individual unique singlish accents) very quickly.

Definitely take up music theory and work hard at it. There are books out there that analyses scores. These will help you.

What analytical books? Can we get in touch? I really need ur help. I've been going thru' ICQ interest groups & such. But can't find pple like u. Girls just want romance; guys would rather "teach" music to girls. I'm thinking this forum should be different. Like I said, u're a god-send.

I know what you mean by "colours and shades". It's hard to explain, more of something to be felt and "seen" rather than heard. I think all you need is a little help in conventional music theory/ practical and you're set to go. I'll be waiting to see your name in the Grammies!

Oh, thank u. Thing is, I don't like to work alone or take credit alone. I'll be bored to death, which is reason why I won't want to survive alone in holocaust. I want pple to work & play with, not Grammies. Of course, all musicians would like to have audiences as well.

Can't give you any more advise - I probably need advise from you.

Well, if u think i got something to offer u, can we get in touch? I'll be glad to show u the colors & shades i see. Music is just simple relativity. The question is WHY it sounds the way it does. I suspect it's the same as colorful intonation in speech & expression. Contrast. Also, another theory would be "tension", which is why many songs "resolve" back to some "root" sound. Like a journey away from home, and back. But then, I've written many snippets that resolve to a "non-root". Why's that?

Oh, if you're into classical, listening to the Romantic's may help - lots of different tonal colours. My favourites: Tchaikovsky and Mahler. Respighi is another personal favourite.

I'll definitely try that! But again, I'm not practiced at sight-reading yet. U sure those r not much more difficult than Fantasie Impromptu?

Please, get in touch with me? My email is jonghann@hotmail.com. ICQ number 161772647.

 

[Cheez]

Go to www.finalemusic.com. Download the "Finale NotePad" (free version), not the viewer. That way, u can write music as well! The software allows u to put notes on the staff, & indicates the sound. That way, the only thing left to figure out is the rhythm. Rhythm is easy to me. Fantasie Impromptu has offbeat rhythm --- right & left hand different. I love that piece. Too bad, Finale NotePad can't allow something like that.

Any way you can export your finale file into another format, maybe midi? Really, really don't want to install.

For a moment you scared me - I took ages to learn to play Fantasie Impromtu and I'm still horrible at it. If you sight-read that....

And yes, the left and right hands are different: left hand in triplet semiquavers and right hand straight semiquavers. Not easy, huh.

Also, another theory would be "tension", which is why many songs "resolve" back to some "root" sound. Like a journey away from home, and back. But then, I've written many snippets that resolve to a "non-root". Why's that?

Don't always have to end in the root. A journey doesn't always have to end up back home - can be somewhere else better.

I'll definitely try that! But again, I'm not practiced at sight-reading yet. U sure those r not much more difficult than Fantasie Impromptu?

I mean listening to the music, not playing them. Mahler's Symphony no. 1 is a great way to start - few crazy people write for a larger than usual orchestra - Mahler is one of them. May be a little heavy for people not used to classical, but this is one of the first pieces I fell in love with. Respighi's "Pines of Rome" is great - one of my favourites. If you "see" music, these music will really paint something in your brain.

 

[jon_wong]

Any way you can export your finale file into another format, maybe midi? Really, really don't want to install.

Midi? Then u won't be able to see the score. Plus, the filesize will likely be much larger. Send to where? U didn't leave ur email address. The midi will also sound bad, since Finale NotePad (being free) comes with no frills. Oh, that reminds me, it doesn't even have the frills to export to midi!

I'm sensing u're not willing to divulge ur contact info? It's ok then. I'm used to it. I've long given up looking for fellow explorers. Just "play the field" and try to savor any morsels of intellectual exchanges in the midst. I often play the piano for some girl, & pretend she's "grading" me & "reviewing" my music. Even though she'd usually just gape or say "oh, romantic". Sigh... As for attracting guys, i might have to grow some good-sized feminine breasts. But I usually DO get guys' attention when they THINK i may be in contact with many girls.

I wish there's a "Shaolin Temple of Music" somewhere.

For a moment you scared me - I took ages to learn to play Fantasie Impromtu and I'm still horrible at it. If you sight-read that....

And yes, the left and right hands are different: left hand in triplet semiquavers and right hand straight semiquavers. Not easy, huh.

I realized it's easier when u keep the right hand in strict timing. The left hand will follow. It's important to memorize the finger positions, becos there's almost no break in between the "runs". It's one of those pieces I can't play strictly by ear. Good exercise in memory & agility.

I mean listening to the music, not playing them. Mahler's Symphony no. 1 is a great way to start - few crazy people write for a larger than usual orchestra - Mahler is one of them. May be a little heavy for people not used to classical, but this is one of the first pieces I fell in love with. Respighi's "Pines of Rome" is great - one of my favourites. If you "see" music, these music will really paint something in your brain.

Hmm. I'll definitely try to borrow those from Esplanade. Available there?

 

[Cheez]

Hey, don't get me wrong. I'm happy to help anyway I can. That's what this forum is for, right? I don't usually broadcast my contact info out in the open. And your gender makes no difference to me; I'm a married man with a 3 year old son.

I really don't like to install anything on my PC because it messes up me Windows registry.

If you want to email and write more on this, why not leave me a private message from this site? James did a pretty good job in making this site available - even including private messaging.

And where are the gurus out there? Hey, help this guy out!

 

[Cheez]

OK. I donwloaded the viewer and saw your piece. I didn't have the time yet to go through the whole piece. But your piece "Wierd Progression" looks interesting. At a glance, there are some mistakes that should be avoided (like running 5ths) - especially if it is classical or vocal. But the chords progression is interesting. I'll have another look when I get the time. I saved your piece. Great effort and I think you've got potential.

My advise is the same - get training in theory. You won't cover Harmony until Grade 6. Hope others can give their comments.

 

[jon_wong]

Ah! At last!

Ur feedback is exciting!

Dun worry abt my ego. I've got none. Don't know where I lost it. Just let me have it!

I'm tired of getting "good comments". To me, praises r just "lazy feedback".

Running 5ths? From basic chord theory, that means I'm "running" some last note of chords. Eg. G of Chord C. But wat's "running"?

Tomorrow I'm getting my FIRST lesson in piano (plus theory). Meeting my teacher for 1st time. I'm so excited.

Will talk to u again!

By the way, I didn't quite "polish" anything with the score. 1st attempt thing, with no re-look. I'm not saying that it's effortless. I'm saying that I don't know how to re-look! Help! Thanks!

Also, score may be different from my playing (less color & movement). Somewhat tedious to write all my playing down. Any cheap software to recommend? But I suspect u'll recommend I write by hand (note by note). I should learn faster and more thoroughly that way.

 

[pianodancer]

Hi jon and cheez,

Read your posts earnestly. Jon, you're really one hell of a prodigy. I hope you find the right tutor to unleash your talents.

Like you, I found my ability to play by ear at a later stage of my musical journey (read here). But from what you have described, you seemed to have a greater ability than myself. While cheez is trained to transcribe by ear into scores, I transcibe by ear into audio tracks (sample here). People sometimes asked me to write down what I played by ear into scores for them to play, but I don't, because it sort of loses that 'spontanuity''.

I agree with cheez that you should embark on some formal music training in order to make full use of your talents. You will go very far in whatever you do.

You should do a portfolio consists of your scoring and demo CDs and give to some music personalities (like Leong Yoon Ping, Jeremy Monteiro) or barge into the Music Conservatory and look for the Dean. Hopefully they see the talent in you and make an effort to groom you specially.

Cheez, any contacts from your side?

 

[jon_wong]

Hi jon and cheez,

Jon, you're really one hell of a prodigy. I hope you find the right tutor to unleash your talents.

No, wait. Maybe u should get to know my music abilities 1st before assuming I'm a prodigy. Would u want to go esplanade to explore in piano room?? Eh, 1 thing abt me. I have no stage fright. Kinda love the transparent walls of that room.

Like you, I found my ability to play by ear at a later stage of my musical journey (read here). But from what you have described, you seemed to have a greater ability than myself. While cheez is trained to transcribe by ear into scores, I transcibe by ear into audio tracks (sample here). People sometimes asked me to write down what I played by ear into scores for them to play, but I don't, because it sort of loses that 'spontanuity''.

I have no musical journey to speak of. :-( I do sing in a capellas at times, though. And I have a knack for musicals, acting, drama, etc, but never found time to indulge.

I read ur musical journey. Very interesting! I can see u love life, love explorations, love living. I'm an explorer too. Sometimes, that's a curse. I sample different tastes in life too quickly, and often miss out deeper subtleties.

Spontaneity is good, but there's nothing like a "prepared performance". I do both types. Whether in biz emails or proposals, or love letters (seldom), or music, I do both impromptu and prepared. There's always an added depth in prepared pieces.

I feel that spontaneity develops the subconscious mind (fast response, sight-reading, etc). On other hand, "getting into mud" and doing prepared pieces will train diligence, prose, analytical thinking, etc.

I agree with cheez that you should embark on some formal music training in order to make full use of your talents. You will go very far in whatever you do.

I have taken 2 piano lessons thus far. So far so good. My teacher putting me on 3 exams over the next 12 months. Grade 2 theory, grade 5 theory, and grade 8 practical. Seems my sight-reading may be passable for grade 8. Didn't realize I had developed that in the past few weeks. In fact, there r other recent "developments" I didn't realize till now.

You should do a portfolio consists of your scoring and demo CDs and give to some music personalities (like Leong Yoon Ping, Jeremy Monteiro) or barge into the Music Conservatory and look for the Dean. Hopefully they see the talent in you and make an effort to groom you specially.

Well, I have a problem with "packaging" for marketable presentation. Although I am adept at packaging for biz (my work), I tend to "brush past" concepts in my hobbies. Somehow contented that I could "dig deep" into the concepts. Didn't have the urge to package my hobbies for profit. Incidentally, that's the curse of "gifted" pple. That's a double whammy for me, cos I'm not even gifted! haha.

I could buy my way into Music Conservatories, anyway. But wat's the point. I'm not looking to be groomed and to become a star. I'm looking for playmates! I could never survive an apocalypse alone. Would die of boredom, not to mention certain extinction from lack of progeny (not my hobby).

I'm looking for pple like Chopin to play with me. I'm not looking to beat Chopin.

It is the music that drives me, not recognition or profit or competition.

Shall we get together for something? I'm currently in private chats with "seekz". He has amps and drumsets and all in his bedroom! I've only got 1 digital piano (which I could bring to his house).