My question is simple. So what if you know which notes should be in there? Does it help you 'solo' better?
Probably not.
Not being funny here, but this seems like a bit of an odd thing to say. I can't see how not knowing the notes puts you in a better situation.
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Originally Posted by stranger12
seriously.. just feel it..
Again, another person widely missing the point. The crux of my argument is that in teaching beginners how to solo, some kind of system of communicating knowledge is necessary. That happens to be our musical system of scales, note names, chord names etc. Using these devices, I can explain to somebody the basics. Doesn't mean it's everything involved, but it's a way to pass on knowledge. Go look at what the original poster is asking for.
Now, you tell me - how do you explain to somebody how to play by feel? Not saying it can't be done, but nobody has stepped up to try it yet. A lot of people dismiss what I've said saying 'you don't need to know that stuff, just play by feel' but then they don't tell us how.
Again, another person widely missing the point. The crux of my argument is that in teaching beginners how to solo, some kind of system of communicating knowledge is necessary. That happens to be our musical system of scales, note names, chord names etc. Using these devices, I can explain to somebody the basics. Doesn't mean it's everything involved, but it's a way to pass on knowledge. Go look at what the original poster is asking for.
Now, you tell me - how do you explain to somebody how to play by feel? Not saying it can't be done, but nobody has stepped up to try it yet. A lot of people dismiss what I've said saying 'you don't need to know that stuff, just play by feel' but then they don't tell us how.
Go on - give it a try.
I think most people who believe in this "feel" thing exclusively forget that phrasing is something that cannot be taught. If you just play by feel, yes, you can squeeze a melody out. But you're sort of limiting yourself. If you don't feel that you're limited, then good for you, but while that works for you, it doesn't work for everyone else.
Everyone need a guiding light. If you don't then you won't be in here asking or discussing this in the first place. And the guiding light is actually in the form of music theory. After you know your theory, you're equipped to experiment (improvise) on your own. Jam with people. Play what you "feel" is aurally correct. That's when you train your phrasing.
But if you don't know your theory and still go in, then fine. You'll still be able to play, but you'll be another run-of-the-mill major-harmonic minor/pentatonic player. Sure, you'll be fine with this, and good for you. But not everyone will remain satisfied. Those wildy learning and contributing from this thread would be those I think who aren't satisfied with just playing the same scales over and over again.
Yes, there are those who don't know these and still play amazingly. Eric Clapton famously comes to mind. But look where he excels? Blues. And that's where he stays, which is perfectly fine. The difference is, he's got oodles of talent. The rest of us mere mortals need to supplement the lack of that amount of talent with musical theory. Some people have that gift.
I don't.
If you do have such a gift, then you're truley blessed, and seriously don't need anyone's advice. But if you don't have such a gift, and refuse to see that you need this education, you're just sorely limiting yourself.
At the end of the day, to each his own. But one shouldn't come in here thinking that you know better than the next guy that he's wasting his time learning more about unlocking his potential. he could end up being the very next most important guitarist in our lives...
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Lionel www.soundclick.com/demioblue "Whether I'm a good guitarist or not depends on who's listening"
Again, another person widely missing the point. The crux of my argument is that in teaching beginners how to solo, some kind of system of communicating knowledge is necessary.
Vern, while my previous post wasn't addressed to you, it was slightly related in defense of your points so far. :mrgreen:
But in response to your this particular post, I think the hardest thing to teach isn't the hard theory, but more the application of it. That depends on the student, and it's really the hardest thing to do online. Any such discussion or lessons I feel should be done in person, in a studio, with our guitars in hand...:mrgreen:
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Lionel www.soundclick.com/demioblue "Whether I'm a good guitarist or not depends on who's listening"
I think the hardest thing to teach isn't the hard theory, but more the application of it.
Couldn't agree with you more - and there's no hard theory in this thread; it's fairly basic - know the notes in your key, know what chords you have in the key and what the notes are in those and off you go. This thread is (supposed) to be all about practical ways to get started, i.e application of the theory.
Hi i believe before you be able to solo to properly shred, you need to know what you are doing,, for the basics i usually give out tips, forget about what you are playing right now, start from the basics, master you Do re mi far la ti do, start from g major basic scale, do lotsa pattern with it rememebr dont move on until your right hand picking be able to read your heart which means what ever pattern you desires your right hand manage to communicate well with the left hand vice versa. Once you can do it, the rest are quite easy, then you move on to other Gs to scale, once you mastered that then do As so on and so forth just memorise the patterns youd be good, just my suggestion but whatever you do start from slow then pick up speed(later part). "feel" applies when you do some bends, i love how Marty friedman and Jason becker bend the strings, check it out, it's Hawiian style+Jap tune. Other than that too many things to include, it's all about your hearing too! Being a guitarist you need to have sharp hearing especially to diff between flat and sharp notes.
Let's not discount the fact that I did agree with you that knowing your scales and all that theory jazz is of utmost importance as the first step. But then again shouldn't that be the first step in learning an instrument?
My main point here is NOT that we do not use theory or do not have to learnt what are the so called right notes to play.. but it is in trusting your own voice in your head and transmitting your 'feel'ing through your instrument.
So you've been practising your pentatonics, your major/minor, your harmonic/melodic, your pinch harmonics and whatever else... Knowing that alone, I personally feel is not going to allow you to improvise or solo in a musical context. ie with a band, with the radio playing or with the voices you hear in your head...heh, musicians all tend to be a lil looney lah...
We've got to train our minds to listen and hear for ourselves what's right.. and what works.. and what evokes the intended message you are sending out when you play... This in itself works on many levels and for sure, cannot be explained in a few simple posts on a forum.
Instead, what I am suggesting to guitarists who want to embark on this two-handed approach on wood and string wanking, is for them to make their own associations in their mind on what works and then stand and deliver a solo that is more meaningful than boastful.. Sure sweeping appegios, string skipping and the works all sound impressive.. but it'll all amount to nothing unless you leave the listener with something to remember...
If you know the notes to play, because you memorized some scalesm, you may just get away with it.. but I doubt that it'll have any staying power... Tell a story when you play, mean it when you play, and once again when it all comes together, you've got to tell it with some feeling. It's pretty much like a sales pitch.. when you see a customer and you truely believe in your product.. it exudes from your sales talk and you're likely to make the sale..
And for the record, I'm not here just to say this because I don't agree with you or because I want to be right.. I'm saying this because this is my mantra when I play the guitar and if you are willing, then listen..
Instead, what I am suggesting to guitarists who want to embark on this two-handed approach on wood and string wanking, is for them to make their own associations in their mind on what works and then stand and deliver a solo that is more meaningful than boastful.. Sure sweeping appegios, string skipping and the works all sound impressive.. but it'll all amount to nothing unless you leave the listener with something to remember...
Dood. That's all that REALLY matters. Look at the SOFT OM comments. Look at YouTube comments.
Remember - if you can't play it, you can't diss it.
Hehehe.
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"hehe, knowing whatcha like and want always a good thing, save money and time i guess. And the right to ridicule anyone who gas upon anything, everything they see "
So you've been practising your pentatonics, your major/minor, your harmonic/melodic, your pinch harmonics and whatever else... Knowing that alone, I personally feel is not going to allow you to improvise or solo in a musical context. ie with a band, with the radio playing or with the voices you hear in your head...heh, musicians all tend to be a lil looney lah...
I think we're talking about different facets of the same stone here...
Yup, you're right. Knowing all that theory isn't going to help you build your phrasing chops. That's what you're talking about. But NOT knowing all that isn't going to help either... But with those mind strangling concepts, there's at least some light at the end of the tunnel.
What you're saying is, put the guy in a car, throw him the key, and let him feel his way home without teaching him highway code and car handling dynamics. He's going to end up in a ditch after getting buzzed by a trailer at 150km/h and not know why... Sure, he could probably CRAWL his way home, but that would have been a lot easier with some education.
But, you're right. knowing all that won't turn him into an F1 driver, nor will learning all this theory turn anyone into Steve Vai or John Petrucci (who are actually theory monsters).
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Let's not discount the fact that I did agree with you that knowing your scales and all that theory jazz is of utmost importance as the first step. But then again shouldn't that be the first step in learning an instrument?
Yes, learning scales and chords should be the first thing someone learns about an instrument, but that's hardly the way things go with guitars, isn't it? How many people you know studied the classical method of learning when they first began? No. We are mostly like cavemen when it comes to guitars. We learn what we want to learn, which is mostly 3 chords, and the ability to impress ourselves or a girl. We never fully understand the heavy theory backgrounds of the instrument. Did you? I sure didn't...
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We've got to train our minds to listen and hear for ourselves what's right.. and what works.. and what evokes the intended message you are sending out when you play... This in itself works on many levels and for sure, cannot be explained in a few simple posts on a forum.
This is definately true and important. But I think what needs to be stressed is that actually, BOTH elements are equally important. Theory wthout application is useless, and learning to play without understanding is limiting. My point is that both should go hand in hand. One by itself is NOT ENOUGH.
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Lionel www.soundclick.com/demioblue "Whether I'm a good guitarist or not depends on who's listening"
